AMT Models SCALE actually 1/528 not 1/537

[MANOLO]

Hi there, I've been lurking on these forums for a while now and decided to start sharing and hopefully conversing with like-minded enthusiasts.

Since the nineties I have owned and built Sci-Fi model kits and shared in some frustrations about inaccuracies, bad fitting, and models not in proper scales to one another...I have restocked on models in recent years but also faced procrastination: buing all sorts of supplies but not actually doing much on the kits, except here or there...

So my latest obsession was to figure out the inaccuracies of the AMT TOS/Movies kits and maybe come up with ways to make them closer to the filming miniatures...

I will slowly build up this thread with my research and maybe share progress in adapting these to the model kits:

Disclaimer: BIG Thanks to @yotsuna and your thread on the research of
Enterprise Evolution from TOS to TMP
I printed out your works in progress to scale 1/528 based on measurements of the AMT Refit Model kit's Saucer and went from there to see where which part of this kit and the other KIts

- Klingon K'T'Inga
- Reliant
- Cut-away Enterprise

were out of proportion.

I also am in the process of scaling up the AMT D7 to be a 228 m model kit in 1/528 scale.

Stay tuned for my progress on these projects in the next months and years ahead

One of my working hypotheses is that the Scale issues of the Refit AMT Kit are due to it being developed from the Phase 2 proportions and not the actual later Richard Taylor Refit proportions...

Another hypothesis is, that in Canon there are actually at least 4 different Refit-Type Nacelles in use across the different starship classes we know:

1. Constitution Class (based on Filming Miniature)

2. Miranda class (based on ILM Filming miniature, which was slightly different to the Constitution Class Nacelle, slight deviations in details but overall proportions of elements are similar)

3. Constellation Class Nacelle (Filming miniature was presumably made to resemble AMT-Refit Nacelle of the yellow desk top Model on Picard's Ready Room - the Black areas, the power-state magnatomic flux chillers on the AMT Refit are significantly shorter than on the Filming miniature, anf both AMT Model Nacelles are overall wider and lack the outward curve from behind the flux chillers (which the models from POLAR LIGHTS replicated properly)

4. The Curry type features AMT-Miranda Nacelles which are distinct from ILM Miranda, Refit Miniature and AMT Refit Nacelles, thus comprising a whole new type and can be understood - in universe - as a precursor to the Titan-A nacelles and increased retro-Design in Starfleet - I thus have no problem with Excelsior-scaled Curry types.

For the Sydney Class ic have to do further research...

 

[MANOLO]

the saucer of the TOS Cut Away 22 inch Enterprise is actually closer to 1/516 scale ... however, like on the Revell kit, the lower saucer "lip" for a lack of a better word, is too wide, resembling the first miniature and not the series 11 footer minature... from my ballparking the proportions it appears, the saucer is 4 mm too wide - yet if you take these away from the top have, and from there angle the rim correctly you should be able to correct the lower saucer rim to be exactly like on the 11 footer and the polar lights model kits...the center cone of the lower saucer seems to correspond to 1/528 scale, as does the nacelle of the Cut-Away Enterprise.

 

[Dukhat]

I share your frustration about buying kits and parts and having them sit around because I’m tinkering with 5 models at once, not getting any of them done, and having a ton of other models waiting in the wings…

 

[David cgc]

I know the proportions of the AMT refit aren't perfect, but some quick math shows that a 1000' long starship* is 12,000" long, and 12,000 divided by 537 is 22.35 inches. I don't have an assembled kit at hand to see how close that is to the exact length (it's marketed as 22 inches), but it sounds right.

*Thanks to Andy Probert for his appreciation for round-number spaceship lengths.

 

[MANOLO]

I know the proportions of the AMT refit aren't perfect, but some quick math shows that a 1000' long starship* is 12,000" long, and 12,000 divided by 537 is 22.35 inches. I don't have an assembled kit at hand to see how close that is to the exact length (it's marketed as 22 inches), but it sounds right.

*Thanks to Andy Probert for his appreciation for round-number spaceship lengths.

The problem is: the different modules on the AMT Refit (Saucer, Secondary Hull, Nacelles and Pylons) are not scaled to each other in proportion: I will soon add my photographic evidence.

the overall length of the AMT Refit is maybe 1/537 - but the proportions are a bit like a 6 feet toddler: too big saucer, to stubby nacelles.

as i said i came to 1/528 by measuring the saucer diameter of the model kit and relating this to the polar lights 1/1000 model and the most accurate reports on the miniature proportions i could find...which correspond to the modern polar lights kits (Richard Taylor blueprints).

The nacelles of the AMT refit for example have the proper height, yet are for the most part to wide and definitely too short in relation to the AMT Saucer.

The AMT secondary hull is around 5-6 mm too short, but mostly of the appropriate girth...and so on...

I will add photos, when i will be back from holiday...

 

[MANOLO]

so i am not argueing, that the overall length of the AMT Kit out of the box is scaled to 1/537 ... but that based on the saucer and the height of the nacelles, the neck and the girth of the secondary hull, the model kit should be thought of as 1/528 and correcting all modules in that scale would lead to a most accurate representation of the filming miniature at under 60 cm...

 

[publiusr]

Any plans to draw the outlines of the AMT models as compared to the filming models?

Shaw did an excellent drawing of the 1/650? AMT Enterprise that started it all.

 

[MANOLO]

Okay, I have not yet made a lot of practical progress on my research, but I'm continuing to collect information here. So I finally got my hands on a 1:350 K'T'Inga from Polar Lights, and in the process of matching up parts from the available AMT K'T'Inga and AMT D7 and Revell D7 model kits to somehow figure out if I can make an appropriate 1:528 K'T'Inga.

The weird AMT proportions make things a bit complicated, thus I need to share and discuss my findings and rationale...

A lot of filming miniature pictures have become available due to auctions and what not, and what I found interesting here is there seem to be at least three different D7 and four K'T'Inga-Variants on screen.

D7:
- TOS (TAS)
- PHASE II (models were built and pictures can be found from peliminary stages, difference to TOS is internal lighting, feathered paintjob and the Bridge Island resembles the K'T'Inga.
- DS9 Trials and Tribbelations - IKS Gr'oth

K'T'Inga:
- TMP - IKS Amar
- TNG_The Emissary - IKS T'Ong (Memory Alpha contradicts the Auction information and says the footage is reused from TMP)
- TUC/VOY_Flashback/DS9_Way of the Warrior - IKS Kronos One/Kang's Battle Cruiser
- AMT K'T'Inga as background ship in DS9

So first of all, we have the motion picture, TMP, filming miniature. There is of course the ongoing discussion of its exact length - 214 m versus 350 m. I won't elaborate, but for my head Canon fleet - and subsequent customizing, detailing projects for the next two decades, I consider both sizes may occur in the Klingon Fleets.

Lastly, the background ships from DS9 could be considered the same as the hero model, however, there is so much distortion on all possible dimensions, we could - after the SNW D7, the B'Rel and K'Vort Bird-of-Prey dilemma and the recent variants of Klingon ships on Lower Decks - simply assume that the background AMT models on DS9 were just a 23rd Century Variant, larger than the TMP ship. In my head Canon the 40,5 cm AMT Kit thus represents a 1:1000, slightly larger, slightly slimmer version of the everlasting "Klingon Battle Cruiser" - the more pronounced hull plating reflects the 23rd century Armor on Vor'Cha and Negh'Var classes.

We have the miniature that appeared in Star Trek The Next Generation and was created specifically by Greg Jein for that show. I think it was a sleeper ship that carried frozen Klingons from 80 years prior, so from the original series motion picture era. And the filming miniatures from Greg Jein's personal collection were sold off recently, so there's photographs of those miniatures. And apparently it was based off of the Phase 2 D7 models that Greg Jein had, and it is not as intricately detailed, although it features a lot of elements from the motion picture K'T'Inga, namely the overall shape of the nacelles and of the cobra head. But, for example, the bottom of the primary hull is totally without details. I matched the neck and cobra head proprtions to the TOS D7, they are very much the same. Hoeever, when comparing to the TMP Miniature, the neck section appears slightly shorter than on the motion picture miniature, and I think it's one of the differences between the TOS D7 and the TMP K'T'Inga:
On the models the neck grew a tiny bit between TOS and TMP.

But I'm a bit at a loss in trying to figure out the exact variation in dimensions because of lens distortions in the documentary pictures available to me. However, I suspect that in their 1:350 miniature, Polar Lights went with the shorter neck as on the D7 and not the slightly longer neck on the motion picture miniature. I could be mistaken, though. But I wonder if any one of you has come across that, as well?

So we have a K'T'Inga (TMP) with a slightly longer neck, and one K'T'Inga with overall Proportions very close to the TOS D7, namely the TNG Battle Cruiser, season 2.

Assuming the existence of a 350 m Battle Cruiser, the AMT D7 would be easily modified into that K'T'Inga verison and fit the 1/1000 fleets. Moreover, the Polar Lights D7 at ~ 25 cm (and thus a bit larger than the 228 m it should have) could be modified accordingly and fit very well into the 1_1400 fleets.

Even the 1/350 Kronos One at 60,9 cm would scale to about 320 m as a 1/528 ship, (to be correct 1/575 scale at 350 m, or 320/350 = 91,4%), which in this case would be close enough for me, to be displayed with REFIT, Bird of Prey and Reliant...oh and the Eaglemoss OBERTH-XL, for that matter...

To make matters more confusing - when I scale a top view of the TMP miniature to 350 mm (1/1000 @ 350 m) and I match a similar TOP view of the TOS D7 where secondary Hull Nacelle length and Cobra Head dimensions come very close...the D7 would scale to about 333 m which is 94,3 % - the 214/228 m size measures of both classes make 93,9 percent relation...very close...so, could it be that somewhere down the line, in the design process from TOS to PHASE 2 to TMP the rationale was just: K'T'INGA will be slightly longer than D7 by just elongating the Neck section?

So D7 were to be 214m, K'T'Inga 228m or - D7 since TOS 228 m, which is 94% of the longer Necked K'T'Inga thus making K'T'Inga ~243 m long?

TO MAKE A LONG STORY SHORT:

K'T'Inga seems to come in 3 shapes and sizes. Most notably the neck sections varies:

One K'T'Inga has the Head, Neck, (Hull) and Nacelle proprtions that are very close to D7, one ist the TMP miniature with slightly longer neck, and one is the AMT Kit which has a much longer neck...

 

[MANOLO]

however, my intended accurized TMP K'T'INGA in 1/528 scale will probalby scale to 214 m (since i can take some of the components from the AMT Kit, some parts from the Revell D7 and thus minimize customization...

214/528 = 0.4053 m, or 40,5 cm.

From measuring components of the 1/350 kit and translating these to 1/528 measures i get a factor of 0.6628787878787878 - the 60,9 cm would be 40,4 cm. With the shorter neck though...

The longer neck would only be about 1,4 or 1,5 cm longer at 1/528 scale...which would add 7,4 m to the starship, making it 222 m long...

I think that is enough for today...

 

[MANOLO]

Any plans to draw the outlines of the AMT models as compared to the filming models?

Shaw did an excellent drawing of the 1/650? AMT Enterprise that started it all.

I am not tha good yet with digital drawing and 3d sketching...maybe along the lines...i am a bit slow in the hobby atm...

 

[Unicron]

You might consider the option of starting a newer thread when you want to update, as this one has been dormant for a couple of years. I'm generally pretty lenient, but sometimes that's the better option. You can also consolidate replies instead of making several successive posts.