How big was the Enterprise?

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

How big was the Enterprise? I don't mean exact dimensions, but just in a general sense. We have windows and a shuttlebay door for scale. My understanding was that the ship had a crew of some 400 people and about what, 20 to 25 decks, something like that? The TMP-era Enterprise refit was intended to lay over the original Enterprise so the new model for the movies could be hand-waved as an upgrade and on with it. Is that right?

I know there's a few episodes where we see sister ships of the Constitution-class. Did we ever see other Starfleet ship designs in TOS? Dialogue and distant lights don't count.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The Enterprise is big enough so that the saucer is two decks tall and it can't fit inside a Star Destroyer's hangar bay.

The TMP Enterprise refit was built on the framework of the original ship with the proportions altered slightly.

We never saw another Starfleet design in the original TOS, but the remastered version showed the Antares in Charlie X.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

The Enterprise is big enough so that the saucer is two decks tall and it can't fit inside a Star Destroyer's hangar bay.

The TMP Enterprise refit was built on the framework of the original ship with the proportions altered slightly.

We never saw another Starfleet design in the original TOS, but the remastered version showed the Antares in Charlie X.

Was the Antares based on a design intended for TOS, or was did this come about long after the show ended? In other words, is this what was intended back in the 60's if they had the budget, or is this a post-TOS design retroactively inserted into the remaster?

Regarding the Enterprise's size, that's how I always understood it, thank you.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The Antares design came from the Animated Series, so it was never intended for the show but it was from the same era.

Now I'm wondering if there actually is any concept art for TOS ships that were never made. I can't remember ever seeing any, though they did recycle a concept for the Enterprise into the Daedalus-class model in Sisko's office.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

The Antares design came from the Animated Series, so it was never intended for the show but it was from the same era.

Now I'm wondering if there actually is any concept art for TOS ships that were never made. I can't remember ever seeing any, though they did recycle a concept for the Enterprise into the Daedalus-class model in Sisko's office.

From TOS, all we saw was the Constitution-class. From TAS, all we saw was that plus the Antares? Is that it?

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Unless I'm forgetting anything, that's all there was until Star Trek: The Motion Picture gave us the refit and Star Trek II gave us the Reliant. Well, aside from the shuttles. Miniatures were just too expensive I guess. We were lucky to finally see a Klingon ship in the third season and that only happened because AMT wanted to sell more model kits.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

LOA 947 feet.

And it's rather telling (and ironic) that the Klingon ship was first seen in "The Enterprise Incident" as a Klingon-built Romulan ship.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

Unless I'm forgetting anything, that's all there was until Star Trek: The Motion Picture gave us the refit and Star Trek II gave us the Reliant. Well, aside from the shuttles. Miniatures were just too expensive I guess. We were lucky to finally see a Klingon ship in the third season and that only happened because AMT wanted to sell more model kits.

We didn't have Klingon ships in S1 and S2?

 

[HoHoHoRod]

How big was the Enterprise?

Depends who you ask. The most common size is stated to be 289m, but that's never been fully cemented in canon. The closest we ever got to establishing the size was this diagram displayed on a screen, but the scale was entirely illegible on televisions at the time.

The biggest issue is that this size doesn't really work with the sets seen on the series. Countless people have tried to make it all fit within a 289m ship, and it doesn't really work without cheating.

It's made even worse by the similarly dubious length of the refit being stated as 305m. Another length that doesn't really work with what was shown on screen. Things like the Motion Picture Rec Room and the massive Cargo/Shuttlebay don't really fit within a ship that size.

Doug Drexler himself seemingly tried to tackle this issue when he designed a Constitution Class cutaway diagram, originally used for a PC game; The Captain's Chair, and later used on screen in the Enterprise episode In A Mirror Darkly.

In this diagram, Drexler increased the size of the Enterprise to over 400m in his efforts to make everything fit, notably the high deck heights and the Shuttlebay.


The issue of the size of the TOS Enterprise has been further complicated by Strange New Worlds depicting the ship as being 442m in length, giving us the size listed canonically for the first time on its screen legible Dedication plaque.

So it really does depend on who you ask. Personally, I prefer the larger size of 442m as it solves most sizing issues and looks good beside the NX-01.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I know most people won't care, but do we know how many decks the ship is? I always figured about 20-25. I remember when Voyager (series) was new, Voyager was said to be about the size of Kirk's ship. That might be true regarding general length/width/height, but due to the overall design of the ship, there has to be far more internal volume.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I'm usually the guy who says 'don't retcon anything!!' but a 442 metre Enterprise works so well that I'm happy to accept it was that big all along. It solves a bunch of problems without adding any new ones, so who can complain about that?

 

[HoHoHoRod]

I'm usually the guy who says 'don't retcon anything!!' but a 442 metre Enterprise works so well that I'm happy to accept it was that big all along. It solves a bunch of problems without adding any new ones, so who can complain about that?

I love that. Makes the Enterprise actually come across as a Heavy Cruiser, while making Voyager look like a long range scout ship.

Now if we could only all agree on a size for the Excelsior. They say 467m, but just like the Enterprise and 289m, it just doesn't work.

 

[Dukhat]

The Excelsior should be way longer than 467 meters.

 

[HoHoHoRod]

The Excelsior should be way longer than 467 meters.

The DS9 Tech Manual puts it at 511m, which is probably still too small.

 

[HoHoHoRod]

We also have this thing as a reference, I'm not sure what size this MSD puts an Excelsior, but it's definitely a behemoth.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I scaled Excelsior's MSD to match Voyager's MSD and it came out to exactly 467m... if the saucer is only one deck thick at the edge. Otherwise it's more like twice the size. Or its decks aren't very high.

I think 600+ metres is a nice size for the ship personally.

 

[blssdwlf]

I know most people won't care, but do we know how many decks the ship is? I always figured about 20-25. I remember when Voyager (series) was new, Voyager was said to be about the size of Kirk's ship. That might be true regarding general length/width/height, but due to the overall design of the ship, there has to be far more internal volume.

DS9's "Trials and Tribbleations" have O'Brien and Bashir beam in on Deck 21 (in dialogue) of the Enterprise so at least 21 decks. In TOS, the highest deck number mentioned in dialogue was Deck 14, AFAIK.

We didn't have Klingon ships in S1 and S2?

You'll need to use your imagination for the Klingon scout ship seen in S2's "Friday's Child".

 

[Warped9]

For anyone who might be curious I have a thread going in the Arts forum about conjectural TOS designs that could have existed if TOS had had a bit more time and money.

Unseen TOS....

This endeavour could be seen as tangential to my current thread TAS made real. There I am trying to reconcile TAS designs in a 3D fashion as they could have appeared as live-action miniatures in TOS. To some extent I made an effort to adapt or correct the stylized designs into more credible...

www.trekbbs.com

My take on the Antares.

 

[Admiral Jean-Luc Picard]

I'm usually the guy who says 'don't retcon anything!!' but a 442 metre Enterprise works so well that I'm happy to accept it was that big all along. It solves a bunch of problems without adding any new ones, so who can complain about that?

Thank you for posting this. I saved it.

 

[blssdwlf]

For anyone who might be curious I have a thread going in the Arts forum about conjectural TOS designs that could have existed if TOS had had a bit more time and money.

My take on the Antares.

From the front/aft she has some major Voyager vibes