You don’t quite need to be a telepath to determine whether somebody is pretending not to be bothered or is genuinely not bothered. That could easily be determined by a CAT, and one would imagine that a Q can see anything a CAT can see.
The Janeway debate
- Thread starter hux
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You don’t quite need to be a telepath to determine whether somebody is pretending not to be bothered or is genuinely not bothered. That could easily be determined by a CAT, and one would imagine that a Q can see anything a CAT can see.
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Sometimes her decision was rather rash.
Playing around with 'Dark Frontier' was playing an awful bad game of chess. The decision to return and face the full power of the Borg was nonsense and should have ended in infamy.
You do have to suspend belief to watch that episode. I guess that's the trade-off for the "shiny borg stuff" and "kewl explosions".
...which again goes back to Q original point. You shouldn't exploring if you can't except what you're going to find. Death being one of them. Sisko understands it by his speech to Worf in "Rules of Engagement". Picard forgets that just because he's an ambassidor that his crew are still soldiers. They all know fully well than any assignment could be their last.
Wonderful logic. "It's for your own good!"
Maybe you need to go back and rewatch the ep. because that's exactly what he tells Picard he's doing it for.
Pretending it isn't true doesn't make it so.
The Trek Universe is bigger than what just happens in TNG.
The same writers/producers wrote TNG just as the did Voy.
So they say what is canon, not us.
On Earth we call it politics.
We've gotten so numb to it we believe they're necessary evils.
I believe Q told Picard in "Farpoint", that the Federation shouldn't be exploring the unknown if they can't handle what's out there. (That's called a warning) Part of what's out there is Q. If we can't deal with the Q, how do we ever expect to deal with beings worse than them? It's also arrogant and nieve to explore the "wilderness" and think you're not going to encounter hostiles. Lets stop pretending that Picard and his crew are civilians out for a walk in the woods. These are military officers that understand dead is part of the job. They understand this when they take their oath.
If Q warns Picard not to do something and Picard still does it, is it Q's fault?
Are you thinking about his speach in Q Who?
The climax of the episode being that picard admitted that they were not as yet ready for what was out there, the Borg, and they're not so arrogant as to ask for help if need be specially I suppose if there's a god on the bridge gagging to lend a helping hand if you kiss his ring a little. It was so cool when Picard asked for help. Sure Captains kill and die to save their crew all the time, but pandering to assholes, kissing their butts and calling it ice cream... Now THATS diplomacy (and the crew probably appreciates not dying.).
Wonderful logic. "It's for your own good!"
Maybe you need to go back and rewatch the ep. because that's exactly what he tells Picard he's doing it for.
Yes, and just like Carrie's mom, we should take his words at face value, eh?
Thanks, I'm well aware - just offering my opinion with point A. Anyway, my point is you can't judge Picard's behavior towards Q during TNG based on what happened later in Voyager. Picard didn't know about the Hansens - so far as he or anybody else in Starfleet knew during that time period, Q was responsible for the Collective being interested in the Federation, and you can't judge him for holding Q responsible for that when he didn't know about the Hansens.
This isn't about "the dangers of the wilderness." This is about a self-aggrandizing omnipotent that decided to pluck a Starfleet ship up and throw it half a galaxy away to "teach them a lesson" and was willing to let them be killed until they groveled for help - and was unwilling to bring back the dead crew despite it being within his power. What gives Q the right to issue warnings and throw Enterprise into such situations anyway? Based on that, I don't blame Picard for regarding Q with a jaundiced and hostile eye.
ETA: To keep this somewhat related to Voyager, based on her experiences with Q I'm not surprised that Janeway was much less openly hostile towards him.
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Which has nothing to do with the original topic that was brought up.
What was in question was :Q was responsable for the Borg coming to assmilate Earth and he wasn't. It was already established they've been looking for us since the Hansens. It had nothing to do in regards to Picards actions.
Then you've never been a child with an ant farm.
You're making the mistake of believing that Q is equal to us and therefore bound by our morals.
That was Picards mistake too until "All Good Things.."
When you understand that's how the Q relate to all humanoid life, then you might understand Q isn't trying to be cruel. It's like a man trying to teach an ant the stove is hot and not to cross it, so he teaches it the lesson in the way he thinks it can relate. In other words, if a few of you die while I try and teach you it's dangerous then maybe you won't do it. You can't think of Q's values and thinking in human terms. The galaxy is the Q's ant farm, they have every right to do with it as they please just as you have every right to take your ant farm and shake it. Too an ant you are a Q.
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^ Lynx, it is Mr. Bean as one of the blue fellows (Na'vi) from the movie Avatar.
(Space Therapist, that avatar is wonderful, if I may say so.)
Anyways, I think hux is just picking nits at this point. Some people dig Janeway, other people dislike her, and a few people just have to get their favorite Spock underpants in a bunch and nerdrage about her because "O NOES some people like her as much as Kirk!? WHY NO THIS CANNOT STAND."
It's why Peter David wrote Before Dishonor.
Then maybe we could call those blue fellows "beanos"!
The Borg already knew about humans before "Q Who?" in TNG, that's no retcon. The Borg were the ones who attacked the Neutral Zone in the first season, so they already knew about humans.
And Q's actions DID ultimately help because the Borg threat convinced the Feds to militarize more. If they hadn't then the Dominion would've easily defeated them a few years later; Q would've known about the Dominion threat and his actions DID help in a strange and somewhat sick way.
As for Janeway, yes to be honest sexism was an issue with her. The suits were too afraid of offending the audience by portraying the first major female Captain as weak as the premise said she'd be.
And Q's actions DID ultimately help because the Borg threat convinced the Feds to militarize more. If they hadn't then the Dominion would've easily defeated them a few years later; Q would've known about the Dominion threat and his actions DID help in a strange and somewhat sick way.
As for Janeway, yes to be honest sexism was an issue with her. The suits were too afraid of offending the audience by portraying the first major female Captain as weak as the premise said she'd be.
I never regarded Janeway as incompetent or out of her depth as a captain. She'd been in Starfleet for several years at that point, and had gone through some pretty serious stuff before being flung into the Delta Quadrant.
I would compare her actions in the Delta Quadrant (and even Sisko's actions on Deep Space 9, but that's a tangent) to the U.S. and EU in the post-Cold War time period. Trying to get home and dealing with situations without any real overarching ideology (beyond the basics) to allow for flexibility. Plus, we already know what her motivation (as well as that of the rest of the crew) was: to get home. When you're on your own, in an unfriendly place, trying to get home, you often don't have the luxury of second-guessing yourself.
I would compare her actions in the Delta Quadrant (and even Sisko's actions on Deep Space 9, but that's a tangent) to the U.S. and EU in the post-Cold War time period. Trying to get home and dealing with situations without any real overarching ideology (beyond the basics) to allow for flexibility. Plus, we already know what her motivation (as well as that of the rest of the crew) was: to get home. When you're on your own, in an unfriendly place, trying to get home, you often don't have the luxury of second-guessing yourself.
Janeway had been "raised" in Starfleet by her CO "Owen Paris" now please tell me, as our story began, in Caretaker, exactly how 'functional" and well "attuned" was the other product of Paris tutourledge?
(Tom. I 'm talking about Tom.)
Owen is defective.
(Tom. I 'm talking about Tom.)
Owen is defective.
I'm glad you brought up the fact of up to Season 4. A lot of Hate is directed at Janeway but it should be at the powers that be. Garrett Wang was going to killed off at the end of Season 3 for Jeri Ryan because there was a lot of problems with him behind the scenes. He was featured in People's Most Beautiful People segment that summer so since Jennifer Lien wasn't under contract they axed her for that and they didn't think 4 women and 3 men would have kept viewers. Kate Mulgrew was against adding Jeri Ryan since it would diminish Roxanne Dawson's screen time. Valid point since it did combined with her maternity leave. Mulgrew also feuded with Robert Beltran to a point they barely spoke. She wasn't going to renew her contract at the end of Season 5 and it was set up where he would take over as captain. But, as a professional, she did and finished off the series.
I've read critiques of Janeway as captain. She is an autocrat, its her way or the highway. I love TNG but the only time Picard apologized for his way, was in First Contact before Worf beat the crap out of him. I would love to have seen more episodes like Mortal Coil to address Janeway's decision to decide the fate of the Delta Quadrant with a Borg Alliance. Leading up to that point she could justify trying to get home but that alliance?
People can debate Picard vs Janeway but the reality is Science vs Drama. TNG was more about the science and Voyager was all about the Drama. Kate Mulgrew had a much better cast acting around her, sans Garrett Wang, vs Patrick Stewart. Mulgrew, for those who are under 30, was a character actor. There were Voyager Episodes that displayed that such as the Killing Game and Bride of Chaotica. Roxanne Dawson can act any supporting player on TNG under the table. With all the criticism Jeri Ryan has taken for her "catsuit" she can out sing and out act any woman on TNG or Enterprise.
Voyager gets slammed by hard core trekkies. Yes, Voyager used time travel way too much but Shattered and Timeless are in their top 10 episodes. The Series Finale was ridiculous almost as much as avoiding the Borg for 4 seasons but UPN network was over and they were forced out. Its unfortunate they didn't get a movie. I would love to seen what happened. Maybe we will get a reboot like Star Trek did. Long live Seska! Cheers!
I've read critiques of Janeway as captain. She is an autocrat, its her way or the highway. I love TNG but the only time Picard apologized for his way, was in First Contact before Worf beat the crap out of him. I would love to have seen more episodes like Mortal Coil to address Janeway's decision to decide the fate of the Delta Quadrant with a Borg Alliance. Leading up to that point she could justify trying to get home but that alliance?
People can debate Picard vs Janeway but the reality is Science vs Drama. TNG was more about the science and Voyager was all about the Drama. Kate Mulgrew had a much better cast acting around her, sans Garrett Wang, vs Patrick Stewart. Mulgrew, for those who are under 30, was a character actor. There were Voyager Episodes that displayed that such as the Killing Game and Bride of Chaotica. Roxanne Dawson can act any supporting player on TNG under the table. With all the criticism Jeri Ryan has taken for her "catsuit" she can out sing and out act any woman on TNG or Enterprise.
Voyager gets slammed by hard core trekkies. Yes, Voyager used time travel way too much but Shattered and Timeless are in their top 10 episodes. The Series Finale was ridiculous almost as much as avoiding the Borg for 4 seasons but UPN network was over and they were forced out. Its unfortunate they didn't get a movie. I would love to seen what happened. Maybe we will get a reboot like Star Trek did. Long live Seska! Cheers!
Excellent post. I've always felt that with the exception of Wang, Lien, and Beltran Voyager had an amazing collection of actors. As for time travel it irks me when people say Voyager used it too much when they had the same amount of time travel as both TNG and DS9.
I'm going to agree here because I too include those actors in the standard of acting that was good. Beltran is so underestimated but his facial expressions captured some wonderful moments of amusement and irony. Lien embodied the woman/child empath and seemed to grow with the role, it fitted her. I didn't find fault with Wang's acting either, you can't have every character leading the way but he played his part.
I really wish they explored a romantic relationship with Janeway and Chokotay. They may have hated each other in RL but the Chemistry they had was incredible. Resolutions was the episode that showed they had feelings for each other, and this episode put the rest of the cast at the forefront to flesh out their characters. Season 4 could be debated as the best but Tom/Brianna was overshadowed with 7 fighting Janeway at every issue. Season 2 was the best Pre 7 of Nine. We will never know how this played out if Kes stays and Harry gets killed off. After that moment he only had Timeless, which is one of my top 5 favorite. Nightingale, 7 owned his episode. Warlord, Cold Fire, Before and After Kes shone although the writers screwed up Year of Hell by Janeway not knowing about the Cronoton that Kes told her about. Even Fury in S6, she killed it.
I guess that just validates that they were indeed good actors because there are episodes (as cited with Timeless) that given the material the actors (Wang and Beltran) prove themselves. I often feel that way about Ethan Phillips too, that given Neelix's alien race that slotted him into a comical role at times, and the makeup and clothing.. that he had to work harder to inject some pathos and actual 'humanity' into some of his scenes. Seven too. Total opposite to Neelix in that the actress had to overcome being just a robotic barbie.
That being said, there is always chemistry and you can't always create that. I know some enjoyed the Chakotay/Seven combo but I felt Janeway and Chakotay had chemistry in spades.
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