Captain Janeway was a perfectly competent captain when her responsibilities consisted of nothing more than saying "report" or telling Tom which way to point the ship but when she was put under pressure and asked to demonstrate her leadership abilities, she failed miserably - For me, the first time Janeway was required to make genuinely difficult command decisions was "scorpion" - In this episode, she actively dismissed the opinions of her crew (especially Chakotay) and conveniently ignored the Prime Directive, in order to get through Borg space - She helped the Borg develop a technique for murdering species 8472 and maintain control and even when Chokotay discovered that the Borg had in fact started the war by deliberately attacking species 8472, Janeway criticised Chakotay for changing her decision (when she was unconscious) and again exibited erratic behaviors In the "Night" episode, we again see Janeway display these erratic behaviours and demonstrate that she is an emotionally incapable leader who fails to recognise the responsibilities of being captain - Then we had a number of episodes where Janeway did not need to be anything other than average but once again when she was forced into a real command sitaution she repeated this erratic and incompetent behaviour in the "Equinox" episodes - once more, when she is put under pressure, she proves that she is out of her depth even to the extent that she plays with a mans life and dismisses Chakotay again (this time literally dismissing him and confining him to his quarters; she then later threatens Tuvok with the same punishment) - This episode further highlights her inability to be professional and we again see her being emotionally incapable of showing sincere leadership There are countless examples of Janeway exibiting her self-rightious, superior, smug and over compensating behavior - in the episode "Shattered" when Chakotay goes to the bridge 7 years earlier and tries to explain to janeway what has happened, she acts so monumentally self-satisfied and smug that it's almost unbearable - like wise, in the episode "Relativity" when she and Tuvok capture a future Seven of nine, she again demonstrates this utter self-satisfied, smug superiority and shows no conviction, leadership, professionalism or self-awareness - imagine if Picard had been in those scenarios and you'' quickly see the difference Some people may accuse Mulgrew of poor acting or the writers of being inconsistent but this is where i will actually defend the Janeway character - I actually believe that the writers deliberately wrote her to be a captain out of her depth and allowed Mulgrew to interpret that perfectly - The writers make it clear that this is her first command and i like to believe that they deliberately wanted this captain and this crew to be genuinely inexperienced - she clearly is out of her depth and does not possess the skills necessary to be a truly gifted captain - In the "Good shepard" episode, Chakotay mentions that many crew members don't make it past their first year and get reassigned and i like to think that the Chakotay character was actually including Janeway in that group of people who would probably have been ressigned (i certainly think the writers had that intention) - similarly, in the episode "Renaissance man", the doctor admits that he's been keeping a record of the captains more questionable decisions which again highlights that the writers were aware of her many failures and deliberately wanted to flag them (which suggests that she was purposely written to be a poor captain) plus the fact that the most copetent crew members appear to have been the ex maquis There can be no dount that the crew come to respect and admire Janeway but this is more due to their circumstances rather than their faith in her demonstrated abilities - for me, Janeway is a poor captain who lacks experience and natural ability - she demonstrates time and again that when she is taken out of her comfort zone and asked to show real command abilities, she cannot and instead of relying on starfleet training, she becomes erratic, self-righteous and emotionally involved To conclude, i would like to point out that i am not criticising the show for having such a poor captain but in fact, i am congratulating it - until Voyager, we had only ever seen truly talented, brilliant and naturally gifted captains (Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and later Archer who i would include) Voyager showed us an inexperienced crew lead by an inexperienced captain who could not cope when the big decisions and events came her way - I think the writers left enough evidence to suggest that Chakotay was aware of this (and of course the doctor) but i suspect the rest of the crew also had similar feelings - her short comings and inability to demonstrate true leadership and skilled captaincy was one of the factors that made the show my favourite trek show and i enjoyed this aspect of the show a great deal she was a poor captain but that made her more interesting in many ways discuss
tl/dr If you want to start a conversation, maybe something like, "Hey! I think Janeway should have done X in episode Y" to get the ball rolling would work better.
I disagree with Janeway being at all a bad captain. I thought Janeway was a great captain, who bent or broke the Prime Directive only when necessary, but in general held up to it pretty well, especially considering she had no consequences from Starfleet. The fact she was more human than the prior captains made her a much more believable character, and just the right person for their unique circumstance. In the examples you mention, I never felt that she appeared smug or self righteous (aside from Equinox). She was stubborn at times, but as captain she needs to be sure of herself to make decisions. But she was always open to suggestions from the crew, and also came up with many intelligent solutions to problems on her own. Nothing about that says bad captain to me. I do feel the species 8472 / Borg situation is a legitimate argument. On one hand, she chose for the apparently lesser of two evils to survive, but on the other hand, it turns out that the Borg started the war and there is no indication that species 8472 had any interest in conquering any other races like the Borg did. And as a consequence of Janeway's actions, species 8472 planned to make their way to Earth and infiltrate Starfleet. The ONLY episode where Janeway's behaviour is wrong to me is Equinox part 2, where she's like a Klingon woman during a period.
You are correct. In fact, phrases like this... ... are kind of a giveaway. It's amazing how attitudes and behaviors that are seen as "self-confidence" in men can be seen as "smug" in women. hux, I'd like to give you a huge THANK YOU for illustrating a point I've been trying to make for a while. In the meantime, let's have a civil discussion.
Busted! Just trying to avoid having to do any extra work around here. I do have a finite supply of coffee you know...
I think it's easy to say Janeway was a poor captain and say she's an overly emotional(you know because men aren't? Sisko?) when you take things out of context and don't ever factor in the continued stress she was under due to her numerous responsibilities nor can't you state that Picard would have done anything better. Especially factoring in 9 out of every 10 decisions Picard had to make had to be discussed and approved by Starfleet. So Picard never made many choices on his own accord. I believe Picard broke the Prime Directive as well in "Who Watches the Watchers". Picard also failed to recognize his duty as captain in "First Contact" when it was more important to save a material thing such as a ship over that of the crew on it.
She's a good captain portrayed by a great actress who fell victim to bad writing more often than not.
Janeway is right up there with the best of Starfleet captains! She is my favorite behind Kirk and Picard.
Not really much to say here. I liked Janeway and Mulgrew as Janeway. It was a different take on the role of the captain and she was refreshing. -The 'Tastic
So far during my rewatch, I've come to realise something about Janeway's character I wasn't sure about before but now that I'm up to season 4, it's starting to become obvious. I would be fine with Janeway's actions and behaviour if the writing on Voyager was more complex and illustrated that she may not always be right. Having a Captain with flaws is fine, in fact, desirable (it make for interesting characterisation), but the problem is that most stories seem to skew Janeway's decisions as being 100% correct and everyone else is WRONG. In a real situation, sometimes you have to make a call and it's not going to satisfy everyone. I am fine with this - it's realistic. The problem is that most Voyager scripts don't go into enough detail to make it seem this way. True, Chakotay will sometimes lock horns with Janeway, and it's great to watch, until Chakotay is beaten into submission by the dialogue and just basically functions as her Yes Man after a while. The show would've been better and more interesting if they had shown the crew being increasingly dissatisfied with her decisions. An example of this being dealt with well is in Year of Hell. Janeway after originally stubbornly refusing to break up Voyager's crew is resigned to having to do just that a few months later. It showed her making a call, and having to go back on that call. Examples of this being dealt with badly are every time Janeway and Seven argue. More often than not, during their heated exchanges, I usually find myself taking Seven's side, but the way the episodes are written are designed to show Seven as being WRONG and Janeway is ALWAYS RIGHT. The dialogue is skewed towards Janeway's opinion being the right opinion. I blame all this on Jeri Taylor as somehow she felt that the best way to portray a female captain was to repeatedly illustrate her as being stubborn, arrogant and ALWAYS RIGHT. This argument again - that 'men are so feeble we are scared of women;' argument. If you want to compare Janeway to the character Voyager fans throw back at us apparent 'haters', Sisko; yes, they are both flawed characters. But while Sisko is flawed, DS9's writing was so much better that stories usually leave the audiences to their own devices to decide whether they agree with him or not. Sisko owns his flaws and recognises them. His two major questions acts (imo) are when he irradiated that Maquis planet, obsessed with capturing Eddington. After Sisko does that, the crew is shown visibly disturbed by this action and the audience is left to decide whether they agree with Sisko or not. The other is his actions in 'In the Pale Moonlight' and well, that's basically a classic story of a person deciding the greater good, a concept which never has a 'right' answer. Where as Janeway is usually portrayed as being this amazing, perfect Mary Sue and very RARELY analyses her own behaviour ('Night' would be the only major example that comes to mind). Janeway would've been a much more interesting and likeable character if they didn't portray her as 'perfect'. Seven of Nine would've been the perfect opportunity to have someone constantly call out Janeway on her decisions, and whilst she does do this, at no point (that I can recall) is Seven's perspective portrayed as being valid. It's the Janeway or the highway.
Jeri Taylor was a consultant for the show to the end once she ceased being involved as a day-to-day producer? I forget...
She was executive producer for seasons 1-4 and then became a creative consultant from 5 onwards where Braga became an executive producer in her place. From memory, I think there's a shift in tone from season 5 onwards, so I'm interested to see if it's for the better or worse.
I'm not sure yet, but I skipped more eps in season 6 than any other so far. About to start season 7 on my re-watch.
I don't even know where to start. The program was never intended to be an exploration of the captain's character, but was always an action adventure sci-fi program about a ship that is lost in space. While the writing was inconsistent and lacked continuity, there were still many episodes that were both enjoyable and entertaining. I appreciate that Hux provided some specific examples rather than making generalizations, but I still have issues with many of the interpretations. "Scorpion." Janeway knew she was making a dangerous decision, calling it a "pact with the devil." However, she was up against the wall--take a chance or give up on getting home. She was also making her decision with the information she had at the time. She learned more details later than showed she was in error, but how could she know that would happen? The fallout of Scorpion was getting past Borg space and obtaining a former drone who was instrumental in eventually helping them return to the AQ. It might be wrong to justify the means by looking at the ends, but--sometimes it works. "Night." I think it was probably a mistake to show Janeway withdraw from her crew for weeks and months, but, even so, she was involved in the ongoing management of the ship. She was briefed about the ship and monitored it from her quarters, taking action when needed. It would be totally unrealistic to expect her to sail through this whole ordeal without a few cracks in her emotional stability, but this withdrawal was, perhaps, a bit much. "Shattered." A criminal you're chasing shows up on the bridge claiming to be your first officer from seven years in the future. You've never actually talked to him in person; you've never worked with him at all; all you know about him is that he is the Maquis cell leader you are supposed to arrest. Did you expect her to simply smile and say, "Have a seat"? I think she acted totally in character based on the situation. "Relativity." Braxton captures Seven of Nine several times before he finally captures Janeway. I'm not sure what you're talking about on this one. "Good Shepherd." I don't think Chakotay is talking about Janeway not lasting a year as captain. In the original back story, this is Janeway's second command. In fact, she talks about how Tuvok's security review ripped her when she was a younger captain on another ship (Janeway says in "Revulsion," "The first time I met Tuvok he dressed me down in front of three Starfleet admirals for failing to observe proper tactical procedures during my first command"). "Renaissance Man." Of course the doctor was keeping track of her "indiscretions." That is his job. No captain in such a position could avoid making mistakes worthy of a note in the medical officer's logs. She knew it and accepted it as inevitable. I think Janeway was a great leader--she was compassionate, responsive, protective, brave, dedicated, focused, demanding, etc. Now for SFRX's comments. "Year of Hell." Of course she is going to refuse to split up the crew until absolutely necessary. To think otherwise is just silly. She didn't "go back on her call" to keep the crew together. She made another decision later when the situation changed. And, anyway, after the reset button is hit, YOH never happened. Janeway did listen and respond to Seven. I don't have time to look up examples at length, but I remember that Seven convinced Janeway to take a different tactic with the EMH in "Latent Image," and she influenced Janeway to try to harness the Omega particle. Those are just two that come to mind, but I'm sure there are more. As for being always right? Janeway had to eat crow more than once. The most obvious is "Equinox," but there are others. Let's see: "Hope and Fear," when she trusted Arturis; "Inside Man," when she trusts the holographic Reginald Barclay. That's two, for a start. Janeway wasn't always right, and she often contemplates her decisions. That's what depressed her in "Night," and what haunted her in "Equinox." If any character was close to being a Mary Sue, it was Seven of Nine. Again, the program wasn't about analyzing the captain. In fact, Star Trek tradition makes the captain the "hero," so it would be "normal" for the writers to try to make her perfect. They decided not to, and, as a result, we have a captain that is complex, flawed, interesting, and challenged, and we were blessed with an actress who embraced the character fully. Lucky us!
Let's be honest...the problem with Janeway was that she was a female captain instead of a captain that happened to be female. The end result was a captain that was erratically written in order for her to be shown in the best light regardless of the circumstances...which in turn made her seem erratic. Janeway ALWAYS had to be smarter and better than any of the men on the show and the men were never allowed to serious question her authority (and certainly not do so and be proven right). You'll note that the only crew members that are allowed the seriously challenger her decision making were other women...Seven, Belana, Seska. It had more to do with the creators feeling the need to make Janeway a role model as opposed to a great character. Compare the way that Janeway was handled to say Sisko. He was a badass, but one with flaws. More importantly, despite being thenfirst black lead...he actuallybhad to earn his captaincy, and the writers had absolutely NO PROBLEM with having members of his crew get in his face or have him be wrong. The end result was that he was a commander that both the crew and the audience could respect. The other thing thatnthey did to Janeway was force her into this weird maternal role that would have been unheardnof for other captains. Kirk, Picard, Sisko even archer....these guys were friends, brothers in arms, the boss....but they were certainly NOT the crew's father.
I disagree it was too much or wrong. Voyager had no staffed councelor, Janeway had no vacation time or real personal time. It's amazing she didn't have a nervous breakdown. Her depression was rather mild considering she had 5 years worth of dead crewman she was also dwelling on. The average person can barely deal with one death and takes months to recover depending the level of familiarity. Sisko almost resigned his position 3x due to the same issue. Janeway was going to reach the point they showed eventually.
I said this was a good example. No need to counter me. :P Seven's a Mary Sue in terms of her abilities. She's physically strong, attractive, confident in her abilities, highly intelligent and can pull off bullshit Borg procedures when the plot necessitates. However she is a complete wreck personality wise, especially in her first season (4). Janeway is portrayed as being ideal, character-wise. Her judgement always impeccable. I wasn't saying Janeway wasn't flawed. The problem was that the scripts never explored those flaws. I can see her flaws as the audience, but she is rarely called out on it. And as for Voyager not being about anything, well I'm not going to disagree with you there. If I wanted a TNG re-hash, then I would just watch TNG. After DS9 I expected Voyager to follow it's lead and re-watching the show, it seems to be at odds with itself. Sometimes they want to be serialised, sometimes it's a bottle show and that inconsistency is frustrating as hell. If the only way to truly enjoy Voyager is to lower my expectations then well, mission accomplished. But with every Voyager fan on this sub-forum defending the show and Janeway with their seeming dying breath, I assumed there was more to the show than I was remembering. I will say, I am enjoying season 4 more than any other season, it's getting into a solid flow and telling weekly stories more often that not wrapped up in an ongoing dilemma. It's kind of like season 2, but not awful because there are no Kazon. But I am concerned that seasons 5, 6 and 7 may not be as remarkable (if my memory serves correctly).
They didn't decide shit. they was no over all 7 year plan. There was no plan period. They just tormented the women.