This, this, this.
I sort of waved off the first post as tl;dr, but if this is what's in there, it's already not worth my time.
The Janeway debate
- Thread starter hux
- Start date
This, this, this.
I sort of waved off the first post as tl;dr, but if this is what's in there, it's already not worth my time.
Watch this and tell me if you ever saw Picard or Kirk talk in this utterly ridiculous way (fast forward to 7:33)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXR5aLQQejA
I think a lot of her problems are due to Mulgrews delivery - the dialogue isn't necessarily the problem but the way she delivers it creates the problem and can make her look pompous, smug, condesending - i don't know if it was Mulgrew or the writers that did this though
because she was dealing with the...ya know....the Borg - Chakaotay knew who they were dealing with (and even gave a little speech that gave the episode is title) - Janeway didn't think rationally or more precisely, she chose to ignore - that's the point i'm making here (and i'm sorry to say this as it might upset her fans but she clearly took part in genocide against an innocent species - classic sociopathic behaviour)
see video above (fast forward to 7:33) and marvel at the smugness
this.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_uxVjizLEM
Then why in "shattered" does she say "doesn't seem like my first command is shaping up the way i expected" (see 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5AJhIj_px0&feature=related
Remember, i'm not crticising the character or the show for Janeways inconsistencies - i'm saying they make for a better show and that the writers made her like this deliberately - but to pretend those erratic character traits are not there is nonesense
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BINGO! Thanks Auntie Kate for taking the time to SPELL IT OUT. It seems so OBVIOUS doesn't it?!!
Its good to see ol' Hux is back to "disscus". I just love how random peeps come in and post a load of CRAP about how terrible Janeway is and then never show up agian... Well apparantly VOY is Hux's Favorite so maybe we'll see Hux again... Not sure how that works... Wonder what he thinks of Picard, the man that never left the bridge the entire first season of TNG...slight exaggeration.
I know you can like a series and not like the captain but the OP boggels my mind... Seriously I think you've only watched it once 8 years ago... and you want to hate HER... Just saying.
Its good to see ol' Hux is back to "disscus". I just love how random peeps come in and post a load of CRAP about how terrible Janeway is and then never show up agian... Well apparantly VOY is Hux's Favorite so maybe we'll see Hux again... Not sure how that works... Wonder what he thinks of Picard, the man that never left the bridge the entire first season of TNG...slight exaggeration.
I know you can like a series and not like the captain but the OP boggels my mind... Seriously I think you've only watched it once 8 years ago... and you want to hate HER... Just saying.
I think a lot forget that Voyager was Janeways first trip as a Captain, considering what happened I feel she coped brilliantly.
I dont sit and watch an episode and think thats wrong or right I just watch it and enjoy it. I know alot of people in real positions who are LOT worse then Janeway, compared to most she was a darn good fictional Captain compared with the real thing.
Now consider the effect of Kathryn and Kate on women since the programme was shown. Im not alone being inspired into the sciences and discovering more about the universe. I think both Janeway and Mulgrew will have a never ending place in womens hearts to inspire us to achieve our dreams and step out of the old 'women at home' thinking.
People often forget that Captains (wether real or fictional) are human beings so are apt to be human with emotions, mistakes and so on. I personally would serve (and Im not in the services) with Janeway anyday.
Personally I think Archer was the worst of the bunch.
I dont sit and watch an episode and think thats wrong or right I just watch it and enjoy it. I know alot of people in real positions who are LOT worse then Janeway, compared to most she was a darn good fictional Captain compared with the real thing.
Now consider the effect of Kathryn and Kate on women since the programme was shown. Im not alone being inspired into the sciences and discovering more about the universe. I think both Janeway and Mulgrew will have a never ending place in womens hearts to inspire us to achieve our dreams and step out of the old 'women at home' thinking.
People often forget that Captains (wether real or fictional) are human beings so are apt to be human with emotions, mistakes and so on. I personally would serve (and Im not in the services) with Janeway anyday.
Personally I think Archer was the worst of the bunch.
calm down - i'm not calling your mum a slag, i'm analysing a character on a tv show
I think i've stated more than once than i like Janeway but believe that when the big decisions needed to be made, she was found wanting - the point i'm making is that i like her specifically because of her flaws and my principle argument is that the writers did this deliberately - there are some who blame Mulgrews acting, some who think the writers couldn't write a female authority figure, some who think the writing was just bad but my argument is that she was always meant to be inexperienced and slightly out of her depth - this, in my opinion, was the intention of the writers
i think the writers left enough clues to come to this conclusion as stated in the op examples (people should read it - it's not a novel people - it'll take 2 minutes)
I don't have any problems with the dialogue. If you have problems with the delivery, then you have a Mulgrew issue. For me, I couldn't listen to Sisko's whispery, singsong dialogue, but I don't dislike Sisko because of it. When it comes to Kirk and his delivery . . . let's just not go there.
She knew how dangerous her decision was to negotiate with the Borg, but she could at least talk to them. There was no discussion with 8472. And there is no way that she or anyone else on the ship could know that the Borg started the conflict with 8472. When you are trying to survive, you may do things that later, with more information, you regret. What is the saying? "When you're up to your neck in alligators, it's easy to forget that the initial objective was to drain the swamp." Maybe those alligators are an endangered species; do you just let them eat you?
I think this must be another Mulgrew delivery issue.
You tell me. I cringed when I heard that line. According to the Janeway backstory, this is at least her second command. I thought maybe she meant her first "new" ship, since Voyager was just launched at the beginning of the series. Bad continuity. Surprise!
Although you protest, you are, in fact, criticising the character and the show, and feel free to do so. I feel just as free to disagree! Ain't it a wonderful world?
I'm not sure where the "Janeway was ALWAYS right" notion is coming from. She wasn't always right and she didn't always make the right decisions. But she always did whatever she thought was right - and that's pretty much all anyone can really do.
Wheras Kirk had Spock or McCoy to set him right when he took a mis-step (even then he made many), Janeway had Chakotay - who made one valiant attempt to change her mind about something ("Scorpion"), failed, and stopped trying. Seven picked up the slack but her protests always descended into bitchy arguments, and since she was outside the chain of command she had no real authority on Voyager.
Was Janeway a bad captain? She got her crew home, across the galaxy, in seven years. Had she obeyed every paranoid alien that didn't want Voyager in their space they'd still be in the Delta Quadrant.
Wheras Kirk had Spock or McCoy to set him right when he took a mis-step (even then he made many), Janeway had Chakotay - who made one valiant attempt to change her mind about something ("Scorpion"), failed, and stopped trying. Seven picked up the slack but her protests always descended into bitchy arguments, and since she was outside the chain of command she had no real authority on Voyager.
Was Janeway a bad captain? She got her crew home, across the galaxy, in seven years. Had she obeyed every paranoid alien that didn't want Voyager in their space they'd still be in the Delta Quadrant.
They had to make Picard condescending and smug occasionally, to remind viewers that he was French. Sadly, the fact that he displayed a backbone and a nerve when doing it with Q completely undermined the original intent!
Janeway - I've had my say many times before so I won't bore everyone with it again. Suffice to say, wasn't much for her. Whether it be the writing, or the performance I'm not sure, just didn't work for me.
Because the Borg are well known for their altruistic, fluffy behaviour
so, hey, why not give them the benefit of the doubt - if Janeway was in the alpha quadrant and met a race who said they were being attacked by another race, she would have said, ok, we'll help you destroy them - i don't think so - being trapped in the delta quadrant doesn't make it alright (especially with a captain who constantly bangs on about the prime directive and following starfleet rules - another example of inconsistency)Although you protest, you are, in fact, criticising the character and the show, and feel free to do so. I feel just as free to disagree! Ain't it a wonderful world?
If i watch a show about jack the ripper and thoroughly enjoy it but suggest that the ripper character is evil, does that mean i'm criticising the character or the show - no, it means i've picked up on character traits that have been intentionally presented by the writers - that's what i'm doing here - acknowledging the writers intention to portray Janeway as inexperienced and lacking leadership skills
If this wasn't the writers deliberate intention to have her be inexperienced and consequently behave accordingly then why did the writers :-
- have Chakotay question her decisions so often
- have Seven question her decisions so often
- have the doctor keep a record of her dubious decisions
- have other crew members criticise her
- make voyager her first command
- Have arterius point out that she was responsible for his homeworlds destruction
- Have species 8472 point out that she helped the Borg to murder them
- Have Tuvok say Janeways methods are unorthodox (it is her greatest strength as a leader but unfortunately, it is also her greatest weakness)
- Have the crew combine forces in "night" to stop her "being erratic" again and refusing to follow her emotionally compromised orders
- Have her lose the plot in "equinox" and start attempting to murder a man and when Chakotay stops her, she's says nothing and just walks off like a sulking child
- have admiral Janeway say "i forgot how self-righteous i used to be"
What - like that example - the raised eyebrow, the slow look down then up to Chakotay like some kind of bond villian - really - you've seen that
Yes Chakotay did try but it was clear that she only listened when she wanted to and he quickly realised that and gave up (which slightly undermined his character imo)
Because one of them is a Starfleet captain who follows regulations, and the other is a Maquis rebel. It would say more about Janeway if they DIDN'T fight occasionally. Also, it gave the writers something to do with Chakotay other than dance around a fire on the bridge.
Because Seven was an ex-Borg drone who was completely unaccustomed to the way humans operate. Most of their conflict was about human nature, and there were many times that on the surface Seven mistook Janeway's comments as hypocritical. This hardly happened at all during the later seasons because Seven came to appreciate Janeway's push.
He's a perfect hologram who spends all day in sick bay and has no experience at commanding a ship. Who is he to judge Janeway in that field? And it was clearly a passing joke, and not a serious allegation about her command ability. A comment like this could only have come from the Doctor.
To create conflict and discussion. Often their criticisms lead to Janeway changing her outlook and giving them the benefit of the doubt. I can think of many times that the crew disagreed with her, and she'd go with their idea.
Because it feels better when they're a virgin. Nobody likes sloppy seconds.
See below
Because she indirectly did. She made a mistake. Showing her make a mistake doesn't mean she being portrayed as an idiot captain. It meant she was portrayed as a real person who makes mistakes and has to face the consequences of those actions the best she can. It doesn't mean she was intentionally written as a bad captain. But it means she wasn't portrayed as unbelievably perfect to the point of being a crappy pretentious character.
He's a Vulcan. He refers to her methods as unorthodox because all humans are weird relative to Vulcans. Vulcans think smiling is unorthodox. This is why they made an interesting pairing on the show. He also couldn't improvise, tap dance, or drop a phat beat very well. These would all be unorthodox.
They did an episode about 4 years of commanding her crew through the DQ catching up to her. They also did an episode about Be'lanna trying to commit suicide. Gonna start a vendetta against her too for being unstable and suicidal? I don't think she made any bad command decisions in Night.
There is a deleted scene that explains that a time dilation bubble in her uterus caused 5 years of PMS to simultaneously afflict her. But they realized they already did an episode where a time dilation bubble in Chakotay's brain caused his charisma to get lost in the future, so they decided to delete the scene.
To show that these are two different Janeways. The Janeway from the future wasn't exactly following protocols, and the differences were supposed to highlight that future Janeway had turned out a little worse than ours. It's all relative. Sure, she got the crew home, but remember that she broke the Prime Directive and the Temporal Prime Directive in so many ways to do it.
I totally agree!
By the way, Space Therapist, what's the name of the species of the guy on your avatar? Looks like something some Federation ship should encounter.
^ Lynx, it is Mr. Bean as one of the blue fellows (Na'vi) from the movie Avatar. 
(Space Therapist, that avatar is wonderful, if I may say so.)
Anyways, I think hux is just picking nits at this point. Some people dig Janeway, other people dislike her, and a few people just have to get their favorite Spock underpants in a bunch and nerdrage about her because "O NOES some people like her as much as Kirk!? WHY NO THIS CANNOT STAND."
It's why Peter David wrote Before Dishonor.
(Space Therapist, that avatar is wonderful, if I may say so.)
Anyways, I think hux is just picking nits at this point. Some people dig Janeway, other people dislike her, and a few people just have to get their favorite Spock underpants in a bunch and nerdrage about her because "O NOES some people like her as much as Kirk!? WHY NO THIS CANNOT STAND."
It's why Peter David wrote Before Dishonor.
My favourite captains were Kirk (TOS) and Janeway - while the stories in both series differed quite a bit, both Captains were human, unpredictable and above all, entertaining (who cares if Chakotay questioned Janeways decision or any of the other "faults the OP listed.....maybe the OP should rewatch Kirk and Spock).
While Patrick Stewart maybe a great actor, I found Picard too stodgy and stayed to the point of becoming boring. TNG had some good storylines but in some ways I also found it the most tedious and boring of all the series (excluding ENT).
Loved Sisko too - but for a whole set of other reasons that relate to the stories and setting of DS9.
While Patrick Stewart maybe a great actor, I found Picard too stodgy and stayed to the point of becoming boring. TNG had some good storylines but in some ways I also found it the most tedious and boring of all the series (excluding ENT).
Loved Sisko too - but for a whole set of other reasons that relate to the stories and setting of DS9.
Oh, wait, you guys, I found a pretty big problem.
Janeway clearly never attended gun safety classes.
froot - you forgot the other problem: Janeway's gun is bigger!! That's got to be a major character flaw too
Oh, wait, you guys, I found a pretty big problem.
Janeway clearly never attended gun safety classes.
Is that why Harry looks like he's saying a prayer?
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