The Janeway debate

[jaime]

Janeway's internal debate about what it means to be a Captain 70,000 light years away from home.

The Cloud
Stardate: 48456.2
Original Airdate: February 13 1995

JANEWAY [OC]: Personal log, Stardate 48546.2. Our journey home is several weeks old now, and I have begun to notice in my crew and in myself, a subtle change as the reality of our situation settles in. Here in the Delta Quadrant, we are virtually the entire family of man. We are more than a crew and I must find a way to be more than a captain to these people, but it's not clear to me exactly how to begin.

[Engineering]

(Janeway comes out of the turbolift and walks past a crewman gazing out of an observation window in the corridor, then into Engineering.)
JANEWAY [OC]: At the Academy, we are taught that a captain is expected to maintain a certain distance. Until now, I've always been comfortable with that distance.
(Torres spots her from the upper catwalk.)
TORRES: Captain, I didn't realize there was an inspection scheduled.
JANEWAY: Not an inspection, Lieutenant. A stroll.
TORRES: We should have the warp drive up and running by oh nine hundred hours. Recalibrating the reactant injectors is the only thing we have left to do.
JANEWAY: Carry on.
(She sees Chakotay in the hallway, quietly looking out a window at the stars)
JANEWAY [OC]: Maybe this is just the way it works. Maybe the distance is necessary. Maybe more than ever now, they need me to be larger than life.

[Mess Hall]

JANEWAY [OC]: I only wish I felt larger than life. Computer, delete last sentence.

*

And the debate isn't just Janeway's issue... its something chatted about in the lower ranks.

*
(Janeway enters. Paris and Kim are at a table, picking at their meal trays.)
JANEWAY: Gentlemen. As you were. So, has Neelix concocted anything interesting this morning?
KIM: There's an ancient Chinese curse, Captain. May you live in interesting times. Mealtime is always interesting now that Neelix is in the kitchen.
JANEWAY: We shouldn't judge him too harshly. He is helping us conserve replicator energy.
PARIS: And I'm sure the gastrointestinal problems will go away as soon as our systems get used to his, er, gourmet touch.
JANEWAY: Well, I'll see you at duty call.
(Janeway leaves.)
KIM: We should've asked her to join us.
PARIS: Ensigns don't invite captains to sit down.
KIM: Why not?
PARIS: Because they don't.
KIM: Well, what's wrong with showing a little courtesy?
PARIS: Captains don't want courtesy, they want respect. That's why they don't get chummy with the lower ranks.
KIM: Well, who else is she supposed to get chummy with out here? There aren't many other captains and admirals for her to talk to.
PARIS: If she wants to sit with us, she'll ask us to join her. That's the way it's done.
KIM: I think you're working from an old rule book, Paris.

*

I love this episode because it has this debate, not just because it has a fun alien of the week and great lines between Neelix and Janeway. I also love the end.

*

Captain's Log, supplemental. We set out to augment our energy reserves and wound up depleting them by over twenty percent. As a result, we've set a new course for a planet fourteen light years away that Neelix says might have compatible energy sources to offer us. It is out of our way, but circumstances offer few alternatives. So much for raising spirits.

[Turbolift]

KIM: Turning in for the night, Captain?
JANEWAY: Actually, I'm going to talk to an animal and then turn in. Something Commander Chakotay taught me. It's supposed to be quite therapeutic. You might want to ask him about it.
KIM: I will.
(Kim gets out of the turbolift then turns.)
KIM: Captain?
JANEWAY: What is it, Ensign?
KIM: Well, I don't mean to be out of place, but if you'd care to join us, you'd be welcome.
JANEWAY: Join you where?

[Sandrine's]

(Chakotay and Paris are playing pool.)
RICKY: Come on, Tommy. Let's get out of here.
PARIS: Easy, honey. I'm setting the Indian up for the big hustle.
RICKY: But he's beating you.
PARIS: Yeah, that's exactly what he's supposed to think, too.
(Janeway and Kim enter.)
JANEWAY: As you were. Well, this is remarkable. Mister Kim tells me this is your doing, Mister Paris.
PARIS: Er, yeah. It's just a little diversion, Captain.
GIGOLO: One always knows when a woman of good breeding enters the room. Ma cherie, may I request your favorite song so that we may dance before I take you to my private felucca on the wharf and make passionate love to you.
PARIS: I'm sorry. If I had some kind of warning that you were coming
JANEWAY: You would have changed it and I would've missed all the fun.
(Gary whispers to Torres.)
GAUNT GARY: I just don't know what the dolls see in the gigolo, do you? Now me, I got a whole different approach to women. Treat a lady like a tramp and a tramp like a lady. Never fails.
TORRES: Paris, did you program this guy?
PARIS: Yeah. Why?
TORRES: He's a pig, and so are you.
GAUNT GARY: Almost never.
JANEWAY: Is this pool or billiards?
PARIS: Er, pool.
JANEWAY: Right. Pool's the one with the pockets. Would you mind if I gave it a try?
GIGOLO: Reculez-vous. Give the handsome young woman some room. Tell me, does she have, er, money?
JANEWAY: Commander Chakotay, your stick?
CHAKOTAY: It's called a cue, Captain.
JANEWAY: A cue. All right. So what do we do? Do I go first?
(Paris allows Janeway to break. Three balls head into pockets.)
JANEWAY: Solids.
SANDRINE: (to Kim) I saw that coming a mile away, didn't you? Ah, you've got a lot to learn, jeune homme. But then, ah, I've got a lot to teach.
(Janeway lines up and eventually sinks her shot while looking away from the table)
JANEWAY: Eight ball in the side pocket.

JANEWAY [OC]: A-koo-chee-moy-a. We are far from the sacred places of our grandfathers and from the bones of our people. But perhaps there is one powerful being who will embrace this good crew and give them the answer they seek.

...
And they got Q

 

[LJones41]

Yes agreed. There was certainly inconsistency in her punishments. Did harry get a written reprimand? If so that would probably be a mark against him in a review for promotion or something

This is about Janeway making the same mistake as Owen Paris . . . she thought Tom Paris had the potential to be a first-rate Starfleet captain and later admiral. She wanted to achieve what Admiral Paris had failed to do. There is a reason why Chakotay always labeled Tom as her "reclamation project". She never thought Harry Kim had that potential. That was her mistake.

However, this is not a reason why she is a bad character. It was just a flaw of hers. But I guess Janeway is not allowed to have flaws.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Kathryn Insaneway Janeway nearly killed Crewman Lessing in the cargo bay during Equinox. She was, and still is, derided as a mentally unstable lunatic.

I actually kinda related to Janeway's behavior in "Equinox". The behavior of Captain Ransom and his crew was a deep betrayal of every principle she held dear, and because the Equinox and Voyager were the only two ships representing the Federation in the Delta Quadrant, Ransom and his crew had likely undermined everything the Voyager had accomplished up to that point. Being that Janeway is a captain who would sacrifice herself and her crew to uphold Starfleet principles, it seemed intensely painful and personal for her, and I felt almost the same way she did.

I think the reason that she was so willing to believe Ransom at the end was because she needed to believe that no Starfleet captain could completely abandon their principles, no matter how bad things got. She needed to believe that the situation she was in could never completely destroy that core of morality, because otherwise it could happen to her too.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

With regards to Tuvix, he's basically the Trolley Problem. If Janeway does nothing, Neelix and Tuvok are both basically dead. If she separates Tuvix to get them back, Tuvix is dead. She chose to switch the trolley to a new track and kill one rather than staying on the current track and letting two die. It's not a clear moral decision anymore than the Trolley Problem itself.

 

[Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME]

I'dd that Captain Kathryn Janeway's willingness to do the wrong thing for the right reasons, made her maybe less heroic but so much more human.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

I was thinking about Tuvix again, and regardless of how you feel about the morality of Janeway's decision, you wouldn't necessarily want a captain of a ship in Voyager's situation to make a different decision. Captains often have to make live-or-death decision all the time, and if Janeway was unwilling to give an order that may lead to the death of one of her crew, failing to give that order could result in the deaths of her entire crew. It's not unlike the kind of decision Troi faces in "Thine Own Self". Thus, even if you disagree with her decision regarding Tuvix, you wouldn't necessarily want to serve under a captain incapable of that decision.

 

[DavidHill]

In my experience, you've had a tendency to blame men's insecurities about women in charge as the main reason they dislike Janeway.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They never devolved Janeway from a salamander 8 episodes earlier.

The "thing" making these decisions is most probably a dandruff clone.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

In my experience, you've had a tendency to blame men's insecurities about women in charge as the main reason they dislike Janeway.

Given Kate Mulgrew's performances as Janeway, especially compared to Geneviève Bujold, I have a hard time believing it's the caliber of the actress. That basically only leaves the writing, which is an argument I can get behind in some cases, but I'm not sure ti fully justifies some of the vitriol Janeway receives.

And, of course, there's always some accounting for taste.

 

[MontgomeryScott]

Captain Janeway was a perfectly competent captain when her responsibilities consisted of nothing more than saying "report" or telling Tom which way to point the ship but when she was put under pressure and asked to demonstrate her leadership abilities, she failed miserably -

It's not about her competence, but her overall attitude of being smug, self-assured, and overconfident to the point of arrogance, despite her being placed in perhaps the most desperate situation ever faced by a Starfleet captain.
This level of female bravado might have worked for Katharine Hepburn in 1940's movies, where a certain level of "Mary Sue" quality was redundant; but if a science fiction series wants to be taken seriously today, then a captain has to show SOME level of believable realism in the characters manner, for the situation being faced.
Here we have something that no Captain was ever really prepared for: Not only was the ship thrown to the other side of the Galaxy, but the ship is damaged, they are Far Behind Enemy Lines, and a large portion of the crew are rebel terrorists. This would put a lot of pressure on any Captain, even James T Kirk, but Janeway is not even a very experienced captain and yet just seems completely unflappable despite being faced with impossible odds, while taking ridiculous chances and insulting the audience's intelligence by having everything just magically work out the way she wants it to-- as if the entire series is just a Mary Sue hologram Adventure she is living, like William Riker with the Voyager series-- and on CHEAT mode.
Ironically, even the ships holographic Doctor has more of an appropriate response to the situation, and the unemotional Vulcan science officer likewise seems quite annoyed perpetually at the seemingly hopeless situation; but Janeway just acts cocky and snide, as if it's the Kobayashi Maru test and she reprogrammed it so she couldn't lose-- she literally seems to approach every situation with the sameobnoxious apple-munching nonchalance of Chris Pine in the 2009 reboot during that test.
As a result, even the series actors and writers like Ronald D Moore and Robert Beltran had serious problems with the series. Janeway never realistically sacrifices, struggles, or suffers as a true leader in such a trying circumstance, and at most she just gets into catfights with the character in the cat-SUIT. It's no wonder that Q wanted to marry Janeway, they have so much in common with the snide cocky attitude and being all-powerful. Perhaps Kate Mulgrew thought she was being like William Shatner as Captain Kirk, but that is just a one-dimensional performance where he is confident and cocky-- which he either postures solely as bravado, such as when he knows he is facing death, or after his crew and ship are safe.
In contrast, Mulgrew's One-Note performance of being a smartass Mary Sue is not convincing; it is just ANNOYING.
The only possible course for such an erratic series about stranded voyageurs, is either Mutiny on the Bounty, or Gilligan's Island. I will leave you to figure out which one the series took... as you sit right back and hear a tale, A Tale of a fateful trip.

 

[MontgomeryScott]

Though Kathryn Janeway is an exceptional Starfleet captain

Anyone can bowl a perfect game by hitting the reset button. deus ex machina.

with her strengths and weaknesses (for me, maybe one of the best one, according to exceptional circonstances), we must note that her crew went through
a lot during their journey of 7 years

which also ended with her hitting the reset button... on the entire timeline.

even if Captain Georgiou impressed me (and (Michelle Yeoh did an amazing job in 2 part épisode),

I myself I am thoroughly impressed, since female captains did not even exist before Kirk's time... along with Spore Drive.

‎there will never be another captain like Captain Kathryn Janeway! :-D

Here's hoping .... I'd hate to see Paramount make that mistake twice. Nobody that irrational should ever even make ensign. Even if they are Spock's step-sister.

 

[Relayer1]

I certainly didn't like the way erratic way Janeway was written, but more than that I didn't like the way she was acted nor the actress portraying her, so I really can't be objective.

Not exactly a personal favourite though...

 

[Gul Sengosts]

Can't say I particularly like or dislike Janeway. I certainly don't like her as much as Picard and Sisko. However I greatly prefer her to Archer.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

I really don’t get the whole “smug and arrogant” thing you seem to go on about. It’s telling that you don’t actually give any examples. With regards to confidence, no captain would have been able to hold their crew together through a seven-year voyage through the Delta Quadrant if they couldn’t inspire confidence, so it seems like your real problem is with the premise of the show and the poor writing rather than the captain herself.

I also take issue with your “Mary Sue” argument. A Mary Sue is a perfect, idealized self-insert character. Janeway is shown on many occasions to make mistakes, and while she holds to certain Starfleet ideals, she’s hardly an ideal person herself. She’s vengeful, ruthless, prone to depression, takes great pleasure in triumphing over her enemies and clings to principles even at great cost to her ship and crew. She’s also constantly in situations of enormous stress and isolation that make her a poor self-insert character. In fact, your own assessment of her character flaws actively contradict your own Mary Sue argument.

I’d also hardly call Kate Mulgrew’s performance one-note. She shows far greater emotional range that William Shatner. (“I’M Captain Kirk!!!”) I’d agree that she doesn’t show a lot of fear, but that really has more to do with how the captain is written than how she’s acted.

Personally, I think the writers do Kate a disservice. I don’t really think they gave her enough good material to work with.

 

[Voth commando1]

I think Janeway was indeed a competent captain and IU there are quite a few crises she dealt with that would have phased other captains.

As for Mulgrew I think she handled the material well and she deserves all laud as a lead actress.

 

[MacLeod]

I think Janeway was indeed a competent captain and IU there are quite a few crises she dealt with that would have phased other captains.

As for Mulgrew I think she handled the material well and she deserves all laud as a lead actress.

I don't think many people critise Mulgrew's performance if there are any complaints it seems to be around how the charatcer was written.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Swarm.

Swarmies "Do not cross our borders. If you don't think we are serious, we are going to beat up some of your crew half to death. Stay away."

Neelix "I know these guys, they turn people inside out, and mount their bodies on hooks. They really like their alone time. We should stay away. 18 months is a small price to pay for not being turned inside out."

B'Elanna "Relax Kitchen rat, we can cloak our selves and be super sneaky to shave 18 months off a seventy year trip that we just started. They'll never know we trespassed on their homespace against their explicit threats and instruction, out of sight, out of mind."

Janeway "Cool. Fuck'em. Make it so."

B'Elanna "Opps, our cloak broke. They can see us. 20 thousand little ships are coming to murder us. Oh bother, I guess I'm not as smart as I thought that I was. We gonna die."

Janeway "Don't worry, I'll be diplomatic: Hello, I'm better than you and allowed to do anything I want because we thought that you were dumb and weak, but maybe I was wrong, and it is me who is dumb and weak, so please don't turn me inside out just because I miscalculated how dumb you are. I'm still better than you, and your wishes are irrelevant because I am better than you, so like, just go away and don't murder us, because that's dumb."

Swarmies: "Dudes, we said you will die, so you will die, did I stutter? Prepare to die."

B'Elanna "Good news everyone! We can murder them all! Their ships are stupid... 20 thousand ships, 8 crew per ship, that's a 160,000 Swarmies, all dead simultaneously at the push of one button, and then the hundred and 40 of us are safe from the police men trying to keep it's citizens safe form invasion by murderers. That's us, the invading murderers, but fuck it, I'd rather be an immoral asshole than dead."

Janeway "Sweet, murder them. 140 humans ( and a few other unimportant aliens) is morally and racially worth more than 160 thousand swarmies because we are righteous, and I would kill triple that number of Swarmies to keep my own skin right side in and off a hook, because I am special. Kill them all."

And the Swarmies died.

And Janeway never ever thought about this genocide ever again, for the rest of her life, especially 5 years later when Icheb and little (powerless) Q did the same thing, and Janeway handed those two kids over for execution for trespassing on the foreign space of litigious assholes without permission.

"Sigh"

 

[Refuge]

Swarm.

Swarmies "Do not cross our borders. If you don't think we are serious, we are going to beat up some of your crew half to death. Stay away."

Neelix "I know these guys, they turn people inside out, and mount their bodies on hooks. They really like their alone time. We should stay away. 18 months is a small price to pay for not being turned inside out."

B'Elanna "Relax Kitchen rat, we can cloak our selves and be super sneaky to shave 18 months off a seventy year trip that we just started. They'll never know we trespassed on their homespace against their explicit threats and instruction, out of sight, out of mind."

Janeway "Cool. Fuck'em. Make it so."

B'Elanna "Opps, our cloak broke. They can see us. 20 thousand little ships are coming to murder us. Oh bother, I guess I'm not as smart as I thought that I was. We gonna die."

Janeway "Don't worry, I'll be diplomatic: Hello, I'm better than you and allowed to do anything I want because we thought that you were dumb and weak, but maybe I was wrong, and it is me who is dumb and weak, so please don't turn me inside out just because I miscalculated how dumb you are. I'm still better than you, and your wishes are irrelevant because I am better than you, so like, just go away and don't murder us, because that's dumb."

Swarmies: "Dudes, we said you will die, so you will die, did I stutter? Prepare to die."

B'Elanna "Good news everyone! We can murder them all! Their ships are stupid... 20 thousand ships, 8 crew per ship, that's a 160,000 Swarmies, all dead simultaneously at the push of one button, and then the hundred and 40 of us are safe from the police men trying to keep it's citizens safe form invasion by murderers. That's us, the invading murderers, but fuck it, I'd rather be an immoral asshole than dead."

Janeway "Sweet, murder them. 140 humans ( and a few other unimportant aliens) is morally and racially worth more than 160 thousand swarmies because we are righteous, and I would kill triple that number of Swarmies to keep my own skin right side in and off a hook, because I am special. Kill them all."

And the Swarmies died.

And Janeway never ever thought about this genocide ever again, for the rest of her life, especially 5 years later when Icheb and little (powerless) Q did the same thing, and Janeway handed those two kids over for execution for trespassing on the foreign space of litigious assholes without permission.

"Sigh"

On a Janeway beat up trip today?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Not all.

That's what happened.

Unless you have a different interpretation of that episode?

 

[Refuge]

I don't recall the same dialogue as you.