Spoilers The Ghost Monument grade and discussion thread

[Christopher]

I’ve long suspected that the First Doctor wasn’t on his first regeneration cycle. We’ve on screen evidence for this but was never followed up.

There's only one piece of "evidence" for that, the suggestion of multiple earlier Doctors in "The Brain of Morbius," and it conflicts with other references like "The Three Doctors" having the Time Lords explicitly refer to Hartnell as "the earliest Doctor" and "The Five Doctors" (and "Twice Upon a Time") calling him "the original, you might say." Everything except "Morbius" has always consistently presented Hartnell as the very first incarnation of the Doctor.

Of course, Who continuity has always been made up as it went. The whole plot of "The Deadly Assassin" depended on the idea that it was impossible to give a Time Lord a new regeneration cycle without destroying Gallifrey and half the universe, but then "The Five Doctors" came along and the Time Lords were offering the Master a new cycle as if it were no big deal. Even so, "The Time of the Doctor" established that, while it was possible to restart a Time Lord's regeneration cycle, it was exceptionally rare and only done in extraordinary circumstances. The Doctor fully expected to die, and it took all of Clara's persuasion to convince the Time Lords to do this special, unprecedented thing and give him a new life cycle. I think it would cheapen that horribly if it were retconned that the same thing had already happened to the Doctor once before.

Besides, I got tired of Moffat always making the Doctor the most exceptional and important and special person in the universe. I don't want Chibnall to perpetuate that bad habit of making everything in the universe revolve around the Doctor. I can accept the Doctor earning a second life cycle because it's necessary to keep the story going, but revealing that they've gotten an extra life cycle twice already would just be obnoxious. Stop making everything about the Doctor. Let the Doctor just be a traveller helping people out, like she said.

Thirteen mentioned last week that it was a long time since she’d bought women’s clothes, though the doctor usually steals them.

He could've bought clothes for Susan when she was enrolled in Coal Hill School. He was trying to blend in and avoid attention, so buying clothes would've been preferable to stealing them. And didn't he spend a fair amount of time living with River in the months before the end of her life? He probably bought her clothes as a gift at some point.

 

[DarthPipes]

I thought the episode was very good. Interesting premise, good guest stars, great location shooting and I continue to enjoy the new Doctor and her companions.

Weaknesses...Jodie's Doctor was way too hyper in the first half of the episode. Needed to tone it down a little. Also, it took way too long to reveal the mystery of this planet. I think the extra run time didn't benefit this story.

I hope the Timeless Child isn't another unknown regeneration of The Doctor. As much as I liked John Hurt as The War Doctor, I've always had mixed feelings about that. I'd love for it to be Susan too but I've given up on that hope. GRRM is more likely to finish writing The Winds of Winter than Doctor Who is of having Susan ever appear again.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Actually, I liked the idea presented in the audios that further regenerating beyond your original cycle can cause deeper character change and almost catastrophic psychological consequences. Given that its essentially living your normal lifespan and all that.

 

[DarthPipes]

On the subject of guns and killing people, the Classic Doctors were always contradictory on that. 5 uses a blaster in Resurrection of the Dalakes not too different than the one that Ryan used last night. Also, I seem to recall in The Brain of Morbius (where the show hints are earlier Doctor incarnations) that the Doctor basically used poisoned gas to kill someone.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

The Doctor didn't set off a bomb, it was an EMP. She clearly stated that she had only fried their circuits and they would reboot soon.

I should've put bomb in quotes, the effect was essentially the same. "Don't violently disrupt their system with bullets, use your brains and push this button to violently disrupt all their systems at once." She didn't find a way to evade them, reason with them, reprogram them, etc. It didn't seem right for her to get on her high horse about it.

If the script hadn't made them immune to the guns Ryan's approach would've been valid. In fact, now that I think about it, it might've been a nice opportunity to work Yaz's police training into it given that she hasn't had much to do.

 

[Relayer1]

On the subject of guns and killing people, the Classic Doctors were always contradictory on that.

I'm kind of OK with each regeneration having mildly different traits.

 

[Marc]

If the script hadn't made them immune to the guns Ryan's approach would've been valid. In fact, now that I think about it, it might've been a nice opportunity to work Yaz's police training into it given that she hasn't had much to do.

Not sure English police officers have much if anything in the way of firearms training as they aren't carried as part of the normal kit.

 

[Relayer1]

Not sure English police officers have much if anything in the way of firearms training as they aren't carried as part of the normal kit.

They don't. Specialised firearms officer is a volunteer position with rigorous selection criteria and they are highly trained.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

A universal constant of sci-fi appears to be that robots are rubbish at shooting.

 

[Relayer1]

A universal constant of sci-fi appears to be that robots are rubbish at shooting.

Depends on the shirt colour of the target.

 

[Romulan_spy]

Regarding the Doctor's pacifism, I think it was more about being smart than about pacifism per se. The Doctor used a EMP device to knock out the sniperbots so she was not against using some force, albeit non-lethal force, against the sniperbots. She was not a complete pacifist in that sense of wanting to leave the bots alone and not hurt them at all. As @Christopher pointed out, the Doctor just wanted a thoughtful solution rather than just jumping to the knee jerk shoot first solution. I think that was very Doctor Who. And I seem to remember that past Doctors have shown disdain for the "shoot first" approach as well. The Doctor has used force, sometimes lethal force but they try to be smart about it, getting as much information about the situation as they can first in order to understand exactly what is going and then finding a solution that really works. The problem with the "shoot first" approach is that it's dumb. That's why the Doctor hates it. First, when you "shoot first" without understanding what is truly happening, you run the risk of causing more problems, like killing the wrong people. Second, there could be a better solution that you might miss if you just shoot first. Like in this episode, where using a bot to emit a EMP pulse effectively shut down all the bots at once without putting anyone at risk, a much better solution than trying to shoot all them and possibly getting someone hurt in the crossfire. And if you can use non-lethal force in a situation and successfully end the threat without causing more collateral damage or more resentment and hate, then so much the better. Heck, we see in our own world how violence perpetuates more violence as one group tries to kill the other to avenge what the other group did and back and forth. The Doctor just knows that if there is a better way, it is worth pursuing.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

I dunno, I think it depends on the incarnation the Doctor's in. Its his way of being in the mood. The Seventh and War Doctors definitely wouldn't shy away from using weapons if it meant they could be used in justification for the bigger picture, the greater good. I do think that the Ninth onwards Doctor tried to STAY a pacifist, tried to be more of the Doctor that he used to be that he made this into a rule for himself to steer away from the darker Doctors he used to be, inadvertently becoming darker in some cases, but he was still earnest in his effort.

The thing that strikes me about the Thirteenth is how earnest she seems to be, to forego the pecissim that Bill's death could've brought and instead just go on living. I also think she tried to prevent her new companions from shooting at the droids because he didn't want for them to start a path that could destroy them in the long run. Possibly.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I also think she tried to prevent her new companions from shooting at the droids because he didn't want for them to start a path that could destroy them in the long run. Possibly.

This reminds me of Davros' speech to the Doctor in Journey's End when he says: "the man who abhors violence, never carrying a gun, but this is the truth Doctor: You take ordinary people and you turn them into weapons." Are you suggesting that the 13th Doctor is trying to avoid this same thing happening again to her new companions?

 

[matthunter]

There's also the fact that Ryan's approach, even had it gotten THEM out of the ruins, wouldn't have saved Epzo and Angstrom, whereas the Doctor's did. And Ryan could have only shoot any bots he could locate, leaving the possibility of reinforcements showing up.

 

[Christopher]

Plus, of course, anyone who goes into a real life-or-death battle expecting it to be just like a video game is likely to get himself or others killed. Even though there have been a lot of stories built around the trope that gaming experience does prepare one for real combat, going back to The Last Starfighter. But it really shouldn't work that way.

There was a Sarah Jane Adventures story, "The Warriors of Kudlak," about aliens using a laser-tag game to recruit human youth for forced conscription into their army, but I think they were using them more as disposable cannon fodder than anything else.

 

[The Doctor]

I enjoyed this less than the premiere but still a much better second outing than we've seen in the past. (Looking at you, Beast Below.) I think the biggest letdown for me is the music, which is understated to the point of invisibility. I loved Gold's big bombastic themes, particularly in the Matt Smith era, and that kind of scoring has been a part of Doctor Who for so long that I'm really missing it. Having the 'fam' rescued by two passing hyperspace ships was a fun nod to The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and I was very much expecting a passing quip from The Doctor to the effect of "well at least we didn't turn into penguins this time."

This series feels very much like it's been built as a jumping on point, just as Matt Smith's first season was, but even more broadly. For longtime viewers it can get to be a bit much but it's clear that Chibnell and the BBC have decided that they needed to build the audience and the best way to do that was a bit of a narrative cheat sheet for the first few episodes. I'm sure it'll calm down as we progress and we'll get a bit less of the show telling us what the show is about.

So far as The Doctor goes, she's settling in nicely and feels very Doctor-y to me with a much-needed dash of empathy to fight against Capaldi's jerkishness. She reminds me very much of Matt Smith in the early days, just without the bizarre physicality that he brought to the role. I see a lot of references that she's like Tennant, but I don't see it. Tennant's Doctor was vain and self-boosting right from the start and Whittaker is far less self-centered. She actually takes time to engage with her 'fam' on a level that Capaldi never would that reminds me much more of Ecclestone (when he wasn't pouting about the Time War.)

 

[PorthosShadow]

I thought the bit with the TARDIS letting her in and then giving her a cookie was its way of saying, sorry I threw you out and took off.

 

[kirk55555]

New life, renewal of The Promise. The Doctor's clung to the guilt of her previous lives' mistakes long enough.

Except basically every time we see The Doctor use a gun, its the right thing to do. At this point, acting like The Doctor is a pacifist is revisionist history that started with RTD and has continued since then. Sometimes action is needed, you can't be a full pacifist and be anything but a useless asshole. The Doctor blows up a lot of stuff, kills when needed (although rarely if ever without great cause, unless its something monsterous like a Cyberman or Dalek), and doesn't go about whining because someone wants to shoot the non-sentient security bots. Imagine if the 14th Doctor had to fight the Kandyman, she'd be drowned in chocolate because she wouldn't want to bruise the poor killer robot. God forbid the 14th fights the Cybermen, she'd probably make sure all the gold in the area was melted down and destroyed so there was no possibility of them getting hurt Not everything can be disabled by the screwdriver, sometimes you just have to blow something up/shoot something.

To be fair, eventually this Doctor will blow something up, destroy things, etc. Even the 10th didn't stick to that non-violence BS. Its just annoying that right now Chibnail wants people to forget everything about The Doctor and acts like pacifism is a positive, when its usually just an excuse to stand by and let fucked up things happen. He'll get over it, just like RTD did, but the show is probably going to keep up the "Star Trek: TNG Season 1" style of of smugness for awhile.

 

[Christopher]

I thought the bit with the TARDIS letting her in and then giving her a cookie was its way of saying, sorry I threw you out and took off.

People keep forgetting that it "threw her out" because it was exploding and she would've been killed if it hadn't. The TARDIS saved her life by doing that -- it has nothing to apologize for.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I thought the bit with the TARDIS letting her in and then giving her a cookie was its way of saying, sorry I threw you out and took off.

That was a wonderful touch. It was like the TARDIS was welcoming the Doctor back. I imagine that the TARDIS threw her out because it was damaged by the regeneration and needed to repair itself by completely renovating the interior which it could not do with the Doctor inside. A bit like temporary moving out of a house in order to do a big renovation. But once the new interior was complete, the TARDIS let her back in and gave her a cookie to say "sorry".