Spoilers The Ghost Monument grade and discussion thread

[Orac Zen]

I enjoyed the hell out of that. The plot was pretty vague (again) and the ending with the racers was a bit pat, but I still enjoyed it. These characters are people I could get to like, and I can usually overlook things that would otherwise annoy me if I find the characters sufficiently interesting. Yaz could do with some work but Ryan and especially Graham really worked in this episode.

Whittaker continues to impress, but I'd rather she took leaves from the books of incarnations other than Tennant's. I detest Tennant's portrayal of the Doctor and I can do without any sort of echoes from that particular past. She's still recognisably the Doctor, though, and that's the most important bit.

The episode looked fabulous. Really liking the cinematography so far.

"The timeless child was abandoned." I hope they go somewhere genuinely interesting with this. Susan would be brilliant but I won't get my hopes up on that score all these years later.

Really, really liked the ending with the TARDIS and its new look is great. (Thank God no one trotted out the "bigger on the inside" thing, though.) Like the theme too but the visuals might take some getting used to.

Bring on next week. It'll be...interesting to see where they go with it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

NO OLD ALIENS THIS SEASON...

The tent in the desert looked enough like the tent in the desert from the greatest show in the galaxy to give me acid reflux.

Before that how could we not think of the eternals looking for enlightenment when we figured out that this was The Amazing Race: Space Edition?

 

[Starkers]

Just before she pulled them out, she had a line, "Oh, I forgot I put things in these pockets!" She must've done it sometime between her clothes shopping and her ill-fated teleport experiment. It might've taken days for her to rig the TARDIS tracker/teleporter, for all we know.

Yes but that implies 12 had them in his pocket before he regenerated, and in TWWFTE 13 makes a big point of having nothing in her pockets? Did the charity shop just happen to stock pop memorabilia?

It was ok, but I think I liked last weeks better. I agree with @Mr. Adventure about Jodie being too earnest. The whole thing with the guns did seem a little heavy handed to me, and it did make me wonder how she would react if she saw a Dalek or something.

You guys have seen Doctor Who before, right? I mean we can argue about all the times the Doctor has used a gun, but we can also agree that many times, across classic and Nu Who, the Doctor's been very vocal about not liking guns.

 

[sttngfan1701d]

Good lord she is like David Tennant come again sometimes. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but certain things she says and does are exactly as he would've done it. Like I said the other day, she's made a better first impression than Capaldi. She's got it. It's just....I dunno. At least she didn't try too hard this time.

The new cinematography is reminding me a lot of the difference between Stargate Universe and the previous Stargate shows. Very similar.

Overall I liked this episode better than last week's, although it was a bit of a mess. And did they really think we'd be scared of those flying/talking bandages?

 

[Lonemagpie]

I thought the dialogue implied the “Timeless Child” was a direct reference to the Doctor herself, something she didn’t actually know about herself.

It clearly was - in fact they outright say "oh, she doesn't remember"

@Christopher There's the line about "you can't fit all of this in a Police Box" which is near quote of an Ian line from An Unearthly Child.

 

[Starkers]

Good lord she is like David Tennant come again sometimes. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but certain things she says and does are exactly as he would've done it. Like I said the other day, she's made a better first impression than Capaldi. She's got it. It's just....I dunno. At least she didn't try too hard this time.

The new cinematography is reminding me a lot of the difference between Stargate Universe and the previous Stargate shows. Very similar.

Overall I liked this episode better than last week's, although it was a bit of a mess. And did they really think we'd be scared of those flying/talking bandages?

There's definitely more than a hint of Tennant in there, which is fine, she is playing the same character after all, but I hope she distinguishes herself a little from him as time goes on. My initial feeling is that I like her more than I liked either Tennant or Capaldi straight out of the gate, she doesn't have the naturalness of Smith for me though, much like Tennant I can see her trying a little too hard on occasion, but that's a subjective view. She's clearly the Doctor and that's what counts.

 

[StCoop]

7.11 million overnights.

Which is pretty fantastic and beats the final figure for all but one episode of last series. It must suck to be one of those "No one will ever watch a female Doctor" people right now...

(I do feel sorry for Capaldi though, as the excuse that his numbers were so low because TV viewing habits had changed no longer holds water.)

 

[Mr Soak]

The tent in the desert looked enough like the tent in the desert from the greatest show in the galaxy to give me acid reflux.

I was hoping the Doctor would make a comment about evil clowns when she saw the tent.

 

[Orac Zen]

There's definitely more than a hint of Tennant in there, which is fine, she is playing the same character after all, but I hope she distinguishes herself a little from him as time goes on.

I hope she distinguishes herself a very great deal from him, but that's me and my...dislike of Tennant's portrayal. To each their own, of course.

My initial feeling is that I like her more than I liked either Tennant or Capaldi straight out of the gate, she doesn't have the naturalness of Smith for me though, much like Tennant I can see her trying a little too hard on occasion, but that's a subjective view. She's clearly the Doctor and that's what counts.

Completely agree with this.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Timeless Child, watch Adric roll out of a cupboard like that biscuit at the end.

 

[matthunter]

(I do feel sorry for Capaldi though, as the excuse that his numbers were so low because TV viewing habits had changed no longer holds water.)

Well, that depends. If folk are out (as they might be on a Saturday) and DVRing, then they'll watch as and when. If they're in and bored on a Sunday, they might watch it live.

I think we might need a breakdown of what days people are likely to stream or watch a recorded episode.

 

[StCoop]

Well, that depends. If folk are out (as they might be on a Saturday) and DVRing, then they'll watch as and when. If they're in and bored on a Sunday, they might watch it live.

The final figure for this episode will be heading towards twice as big as most episodes from last series. People had 28 days to watch Capaldi's episodes and they didn't.

 

[Christopher]

Still trying to adjust to the new direction. I think RTD or Moffat would've offed someone in that story.

I was thinking that Moffat would've dragged out the mystery about the "Ghost Monument"'s identity until the end of the story, and treated "It's the TARDIS!" like some super-clever and important climactic twist. I'm glad this one only kept up the mystery about the "Monument" for about a minute or less after I figured it out.

Jodie's Doctor is just so damned earnest. I almost wonder if she'll try to return the stolen TARDIS and turn herself in.

The Doctor's more about justice (or as she put it last week, "fair play") than law. Part of the reason they stole the TARDIS and left Gallifrey in the first place was because they considered its isolationist, hidebound society unjust. And we've seen previous incarnations, especially the last few, take an even more extreme position about the injustices of Gallifrey's ruling system. So I don't think that's an authority she'd feel she had to submit to. (Man, figuring out pronouns is tricky now. I'm following the TARDIS Wiki's precedent in using singular "they" when referring to the Doctor's incarnations collectively.)

Some of the messaging is a bit heavy-handed and misguided like setting off a bomb being better than using guns on machines.

An EMP, rather. And the Doctor's distaste for weapons (guns here, knives last week) strikes me as more about the way that too many people assume that having a weapon will automatically solve their problems so that they don't have to think. If all you have is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail. The Doctor prefers to use more mental flexibility -- a destructive solution can be on the table if it's the only way out, but having a gun makes it your first resort while relying on your wits gives you more alternatives.

Whittaker continues to impress, but I'd rather she took leaves from the books of incarnations other than Tennant's.

I don't think she's copying Tennant. If anything, she reminds me more of Troughton and Davison. But she's very much her own Doctor from the get-go. One thing that struck me when rewatching "Fell to Earth" yesterday was how reassuring her Doctor is. Even when she was confused and scatterbrained, she projected this comforting self-assurance and quiet competence that made it easy to have faith in her. That's a fantastic trait for any Doctor, and it's all Whittaker.

Yes but that implies 12 had them in his pocket before he regenerated, and in TWWFTE 13 makes a big point of having nothing in her pockets? Did the charity shop just happen to stock pop memorabilia?

Oh, I see what you mean. She said she'd gotten them from some historical figure or other, which can't be if she lost all her possessions in the fall. Well, maybe she was just spinning a tall tale. Or maybe she was confused about where she got them. Her memory was a little scattered last week, so there may still be some leftover glitches.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Timeless Child, watch Adric roll out of a cupboard like that biscuit at the end.

I kind of want this to happen just so I can watch fandom's collective heads explode. Does that make me evil?

 

[1001001]

I voted "very good".

I liked this better than the first episode. I think Whittaker is doing well in the role, they just need to have her stop making speeches about what the Doctor does. It's like she's explaining everything for people who have never watched the show. It's a bit hamfisted.

Otherwise, great to see her reunite with the TARDIS, they wrung some nice emotion out of that. Not sure what I think of the new design though...I'll give it some time to sink in.

Curious as to what the Evil Bandages were on about...

 

[Christopher]

I think Whittaker is doing well in the role, they just need to have her stop making speeches about what the Doctor does. It's like she's explaining everything for people who have never watched the show. It's a bit hamfisted.

I felt the same way at first, but it kind of makes sense in light of what she said about how she's still trying to figure out her new self. So she's reminding herself of who the Doctor is and what she stands for. As long as it settles down once she's got that sorted, it should be okay.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I liked the episode. The visuals were beautiful and the various problems were handled well. Jodie is doing great as the Doctor. So far, I am very impressed with her performance and the new direction of the show. Yes, she reminds me of Tennant a lot but that's a good thing IMO. Tennant was my first favorite Doctor. But for me, what made the episode, was the ending. The plot was your classic quest where the characters have to overcome various challenges in order to get to some big reward at the end. Each individual challenge was nothing really to write home about but the payoff at the end was worth it. The reveal of the TARDIS and the reunion between the Doctor and the TARDIS was wonderful. It made me cry with joy!

The new interior will probably take some time to get used to. I personally don't care for the weird nonfunctional interface. I get that the TARDIS is an incredibly advanced alien ship so the interface probably shouldn't look familiar to us. Obviously, it would be a mistake to expect that advanced tech has to conform to our idea of a "futuristic look". Heck, our idea of what futuristic advanced tech should look like has changed over the decades. But at the same time, I feel like it makes it harder for the audience to relate when it is so nonsensical to our understanding of how things should work. For example, when the Doctor is setting a destination or piloting the TARDIS by pushing levers and turning wheels on a console, that is so disconnected from our idea of what piloting a ship should look like. But maybe that alienness of it is the point?

Those sniperbots were as precise as Imperial Stormtroopers.

I thought the exact same thing. It was a weak point in the episode IMO. Also, the name "sniperbot" is a terrible name. Snipers are all about taking their time and setting up a shot carefully at very long range. These bots were nothing like snipers. They just stood there and fired a laser gun very imprecisely at short range. They were the exact opposite to a sniper.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I was thinking that Moffat would've dragged out the mystery about the "Ghost Monument"'s identity until the end of the story, and treated "It's the TARDIS!" like some super-clever and important climactic twist. I'm glad this one only kept up the mystery about the "Monument" for about a minute or less after I figured it out.

Perhaps this is why the show feels so different. We are getting a more plain, straightforward story telling than what we are used to.

And the Doctor's distaste for weapons (guns here, knives last week) strikes me as more about the way that too many people assume that having a weapon will automatically solve their problems so that they don't have to think. If all you have is a hammer, you see every problem as a nail. The Doctor prefers to use more mental flexibility -- a destructive solution can be on the table if it's the only way out, but having a gun makes it your first resort while relying on your wits gives you more alternatives.

Yes, and I think the ep really illustrated this very nicely with Ryan literally running towards the bots all guns blazing and making the problem worse and then the Doctor saving them with a more intellectual solution, turning a bot into a EMP device and stunning all the robots.

 

[Butters]

If we are going to indulge in wild speculation at any point, I’ll put my elaborate theory of to what the Timeless Child refers to the forum.

I’ve long suspected that the First Doctor wasn’t on his first regeneration cycle. We’ve on screen evidence for this but was never followed up. Anyway, Twelve claimed to not remember if he was a little girl or little boy on Gallifrey, Thirteen mentioned last week that it was a long time since she’d bought women’s clothes, though the doctor usually steals them. I think we’re going further in to the Doctors past this time, before One.

Quite how anyone outside gallifrey would know something about the doctor that the doctor doesn’t remains to be seen.

 

[1001001]

I felt the same way at first, but it kind of makes sense in light of what she said about how she's still trying to figure out her new self. So she's reminding herself of who the Doctor is and what she stands for. As long as it settles down once she's got that sorted, it should be okay.

Maybe now that we're back on the TARDIS, it will be more "normal".