The ACTUAL Enterprise G

[Arpy]

Who on Earth was enthusiastic about the TNG Enterprise back in the heyday? Go find some usenet threads and they will be full of "These people don't GET what this ship is SUPPOSED to look like!"
The beloved Excelsior class was The Flying Bathtub.

I was blown away by the Enterprise-D the moment I saw it. As were a lot of fans back then.

Diehards who didn’t want to accept it or a “next generation” at all. TNG won them over, but more importantly it also did a great many others.

The beloved Excelsior Class was designed to be an over designed eyesore. It became beloved by being reused repeatedly.

Thankfully I never heard anyone say anything bad about the TMP Enterprise. Because if those people exist they are difficult and insane.

It’s one of my absolute favorite designs — one that should in my opinion be even more influential than it is; we could talk about it — and yet FYI at least a couple of fans I interact with regularly on and off this board don’t particularly care for it.

I'm also pretty sure that even if people didn't care for the design of the ship, it didn't stop them from watching the show. I mean, I hated the design of the NX-01, and I still watched ENT. I also hated the Abramsprise, yet I saw all three films.

Same, but we’re the ones who are still here. And we were less enthralled by those titles than others because, yes, the ships matter too, just like anything else.

 

[Dukhat]

The beloved Excelsior Class was designed to be an over designed eyesore.

No, it was designed to be the new ship that Kirk and his crew would end up getting after STIII. And it was designed to be easier to film than the TMP Enterprise was.

It became beloved by being reused repeatedly.

Quite the opposite. By the time they started filming Star Trek: Generations, Rick Berman originally wanted the Enterprise-B to be a new design because he was sick of seeing the Excelsior repeatedly in TNG. Only budgetary concerns nixed that idea.

 

[Tallguy]

Quite the opposite. By the time they started filming Star Trek: Generations, Rick Berman originally wanted the Enterprise-B to be a new design because he was sick of seeing the Excelsior repeatedly in TNG. Only budgetary concerns nixed that idea.

Middle of the road: By the time Captain Sulu appeared in Star Trek IV it had become beloved, partly because the TNG FX crews apparently was better at shooting the model? Or just exposure. Who knows?

While I'm sure budget smoothed the path for Berman, they also argued that The Fans (HI!) already knew that the B was an Excelsior because it was on the conference room wall for however many seasons.

But a new ship could have been amortized for DS9 as well. So it certainly wasn't all budget. Just THINK of what re-using that Bird of Prey explosion saved them! (Seriously.)

 

[Arpy]

No, it was designed to be the new ship that Kirk and his crew would end up getting after STIII. And it was designed to be easier to film than the TMP Enterprise was.

It was hoped by Bennet & Co. to replace the Enterprise with the Excelsior, not just an Excelsior Class Enterprise. But neither Roddenberry nor fans wanted the over-designed 80’s-looking “villain” ship to be the new hero ship. And the Refit was used in IV, V, and VI thereafter, regardless how much easier the new model was to film for the crew behind the scenes.

Quite the opposite. By the time they started filming Star Trek: Generations, Rick Berman originally wanted the Enterprise-B to be a new design because he was sick of seeing the Excelsior repeatedly in TNG. Only budgetary concerns nixed that idea.

It was used numerous times before then and its overuse in the Dominion War. It, the Reliant, Grissom, the Klingon BoP, and other models had reached new status with fans by the time TNG movies came around, as old friends. Indeed, too old. Another cost-saving measure in GEN was their literally reusing the same explosion of the BoP from TUC.

I think it’s unfortunate they didn’t use the Constitution design more in the various series. I feel like later ship design has been more influenced by the Reliant and Excelsior models because of their ubiquity, and it's unfortunate as the Constitution is the more elegant design.

 

[Dukhat]

But a new ship could have been amortized for DS9 as well. So it certainly wasn't all budget. Just THINK of what re-using that Bird of Prey explosion saved them! (Seriously.)

Oh, absolutely. If they had made a new model for the Ent-B in Generations, they could have used it in DS9 for such ships as the Lakota, the Malinche, and the Bellerophon. They could have used the original STIII Excelsior for VOY's "Flashback" and then retired the model for good.

It was hoped by Bennet & Co. to replace the Enterprise with the Excelsior, not just an Excelsior Class Enterprise.

Yes, that was what I said.

But neither Roddenberry nor fans wanted the over-designed 80’s-looking “villain” ship to be the new hero ship.

It had nothing to do with the design of the ship. It had to do with the Excelsior herself having a negative connotation based on Styles's boasts about how it was going to supersede the Enterprise, and Scotty's sabotaging of it.

And the Refit was used in IV, V, and VI thereafter, regardless how much easier the new model was to film for the crew behind the scenes.

They had no choice. The Ent-A being established as another TMP refit at the end of IV forced them to have to refilm it despite their annoyance of how hard it was to get the camera around it. And ILM didn't even film it in V, that was Bran Ferren & Associates. And they did a horrible job.

It was used numerous times before then and its overuse in the Dominion War. It, the Reliant, Grissom, the Klingon BoP, and other models had reached new status with fans by the time TNG movies came around, as old friends. Indeed, too old. Another cost-saving measure in GEN was their literally reusing the same explosion of the BoP from TUC.

It was used because they had access to Greg Jein's Flashback model to scan into CGI. But don't for one second believe that the VFX people cared which ship designs they used. They just used whatever was available.

I think it’s unfortunate they didn’t use the Constitution design more in the various series. I feel like later ship design has been more influenced by the Reliant and Excelsior models because of their ubiquity, and it's unfortunate as the Constitution is the more elegant design.

I also would have liked to see a TMP refit on screen during TNG and DS9, but that asset was being used for the films, and by the time of the Dominion war, they had enough CGI ships of other classes to pad out the fleet.

 

[Arpy]

Oh, absolutely. If they had made a new model for the Ent-B in Generations, they could have used it in DS9 for such ships as the Lakota, the Malinche, and the Bellerophon. They could have used the original STIII Excelsior for VOY's "Flashback" and then retired the model for good.



Yes, that was what I said.



It had nothing to do with the design of the ship. It had to do with the Excelsior herself having a negative connotation based on Styles's boasts about how it was going to supersede the Enterprise, and Scotty's sabotaging of it.



They had no choice. The Ent-A being established as another TMP refit at the end of IV forced them to have to refilm it despite their annoyance of how hard it was to get the camera around it. And ILM didn't even film it in V, that was Bran Ferren & Associates. And they did a horrible job.



It was used because they had access to Greg Jein's Flashback model to scan into CGI. But don't for one second believe that the VFX people cared which ship designs they used. They just used whatever was available.



I also would have liked to see a TMP refit on screen during TNG and DS9, but that asset was being used for the films, and by the time of the Dominion war, they had enough CGI ships of other classes to pad out the fleet.

You know, I'd be fascinated to get to know you better. I posted in a couple places, maybe come join:

I wanna throw out an invite to everyone to come join the Trek Zoom this Saturday, 4 PM EDT / 9 PM BST. Link will be the General Trek Discussion forum at the start time. So many diverse opinions on both Trek in general, the 60th anniversary, and this episode in specific. Come spew and/or praise and maybe make some new friends lol​

​

All are welcome, nothing is recorded, and you can come and go as you like! Don’t even have to turn the video on lol ​

 

[Tallguy]

It had nothing to do with the design of the ship. It had to do with the Excelsior herself having a negative connotation based on Styles's boasts about how it was going to supersede the Enterprise, and Scotty's sabotaging of it.

The Excelsior had a negative rep from the moment she was revealed. Before fans had even seen the film. The Reliant, OTOH, was immediately beloved.

But don't for one second believe that the VFX people cared which ship designs they used. They just used whatever was available.

I wouldn't go that far. As I mentioned it was the behind the scenes folks who fought with Berman that the Enterprise-B had to be an Excelsior. Andrew Probert HATED using the movie ships in season one of TNG. He didn't feel it made any sense.

 

[Dukhat]

The Excelsior had a negative rep from the moment she was revealed. Before fans had even seen the film. The Reliant, OTOH, was immediately beloved.

I think the Reliant's popularity came from it being the first new Starfleet design since the TMP refit.

I wouldn't go that far. As I mentioned it was the behind the scenes folks who fought with Berman that the Enterprise-B had to be an Excelsior. Andrew Probert HATED using the movie ships in season one of TNG. He didn't feel it made any sense.

I was actually referring to the Dominion war fleets organized by David Stipes. In conversations with him, he stated that he used what was available to him. The TMP Enterprise model was not; neither was the Enterprise-E. But to speak to your responses: I ultimately think it was the right decision to keep the ENt-B an Excelsior and just add the extra parts to it so it could be damaged without hurting the original model. As for Probert, before he went completely off his rocker (i.e. his early TNG days), he was absolutely right about his feelings that using movie ships, space stations, and stock footage thereof from the films made no sense for such a large move forward in time. The producers didn't want to build new Starfleet models because if the show got canceled after the first season, it would have been a waste of money (their logic.) But really, in my opinion what they should have done was build two extra models, the Probert Ambassador as the main guest starship, and a smaller science vessel which would be the victim of whatever calamity befell it for that episode (i.e. the Tsiolkovsky, the Yosemite, the Brattain, the Pegasus, etc.)

 

[Tallguy]

he was absolutely right about his feelings that using movie ships, space stations, and stock footage thereof from the films made no sense for such a large move forward in time

I totally see his point. But from a budget perspective? No chance. They were close enough and they were literally saving, what? Over a million dollars? It's not like TOS didn't re-use models and footage either.

The TMP Enterprise model was not; neither was the Enterprise-E

I'm actually surprised that DS9 got to use the Galaxy and Intrepid models. I think they made the right choice by keeping the "Hero Ships" rare.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm actually surprised that DS9 got to use the Galaxy and Intrepid models.

You'll note most uses of the Galaxy class on DS9 were after the Enterprise D's destruction when that model was no longer being used as a hero ship. As for the Intrepid, that did take some arguing with Paramount. And even then, aside from the shots of the Bellerophon in orbit of Romulus with warbirds seen around it, most of the shots we see of the ship are just reused Voyager stock footage anyway.

 

[Airmandan]

I disagree that basing the NX class on the Akira was a bad choice, it actually was a great look. Enterprise had a lot of problems but the production design was excellent



She was right, the Voyager we got was better than the almost approved design, the saucer was too pointy in my opinion and the nacelles too long. I liked the sleeker and more elegant look of the final Voyager way more.


It was the design that was turned into a physical study model.

Interesting. I just realized those are pretty much the exact nacelles on the Titan-A just flipped upright

 

[Dukhat]

I totally see his point. But from a budget perspective? No chance. They were close enough and they were literally saving, what? Over a million dollars? It's not like TOS didn't re-use models and footage either.

The thing is, they were building alien of the week ship models. Heck, they even built an impressive space station model, and they just used it as the Edo God without even properly filming it so the audience could see the actual model. If they could build a one-off alien space station, they could have built another Starfleet vessel.

I'm actually surprised that DS9 got to use the Galaxy and Intrepid models. I think they made the right choice by keeping the "Hero Ships" rare.

During the Dominion war fleet scenes there was a moratorium on using the Defiant class (other than the Defiant herself), the Sovereign class and the Intrepid class. Those were the ‘hero’ ships at the time. They didn’t want the audience to think a background Sovereign was in fact the Enterprise-E, or a background Intrepid was Voyager. They could use the Intrepid model for the Bellerophon because the dialogue and script clearly stated what ship it was.

 

[Mage]

During the Dominion war fleet scenes there was a moratorium on using the Defiant class (other than the Defiant herself), the Sovereign class and the Intrepid class. Those were the ‘hero’ ships at the time. They didn’t want the audience to think a background Sovereign was in fact the Enterprise-E, or a background Intrepid was Voyager. They could use the Intrepid model for the Bellerophon because the dialogue and script clearly stated what ship it was.

During the fleet scene at the end of season 5's finale, there are two extra Defiant class ships.
And I find it odd they would do that with the Defiant, while 'Prometheus' showed us two Defiant class starships and never specify if one of them was the Defiant.

 

[Dukhat]

During the fleet scene at the end of season 5's finale, there are two extra Defiant class ships.
And I find it odd they would do that with the Defiant, while 'Prometheus' showed us two Defiant class starships and never specify if one of them was the Defiant.

That was "Call to Arms" where most of those ships were actual physical models (although all the Defiants in question were CGI.) After the big switch to full CGI for the fleet scenes, the only Defiant class ship seen is the Sao Paulo Defiant herself.

 

[Mage]

That was "Call to Arms" where most of those ships were actual physical models (although all the Defiants in question were CGI.) After the big switch to full CGI for the fleet scenes, the only Defiant class ship seen is the Sao Paulo Defiant herself.

Indeed. But it was still a Dominion War fleet scene.

 

[Dukhat]

Indeed. But it was still a Dominion War fleet scene.

True. I guess my point was more that at this early stage (actually pre-war), the idea that a hero ship shouldn't have any duplicates on screen that might confuse the audience wasn't a thing yet, since this was the first time such a huge fleet scene was ever seen on Star Trek.

 

[The Wormhole]

I was about to make a snide comment about "and the Valiant" until I realized we were talking about fleet scenes. Though there was Message in a Bottle, where an Akira and two Defiants are sent to retake the Prometheus. Then again, they both have "USS Defiant NX-74205" written on their hulls, meaning they could be the Defiant itself and the Sao Paulo. Indeed, the officers who beam aboard the Prometheus bridge were even played by background extras who were usually seen as Defiant crew on DS9.

 

[fireproof78]

Indeed. But it was still a Dominion War fleet scene.

The war, Mildred! The war!*






*100 Internet points to those catching the reference.

 

[Dukhat]

I was about to make a snide comment about "and the Valiant" until I realized we were talking about fleet scenes. Though there was Message in a Bottle, where an Akira and two Defiants are sent to retake the Prometheus. Then again, they both have "USS Defiant NX-74205" written on their hulls, meaning they could be the Defiant itself and the Sao Paulo. Indeed, the officers who beam aboard the Prometheus bridge were even played by background extras who were usually seen as Defiant crew on DS9.

Yes, exactly. If it's just one ship on screen, and it's obvious that it's not the hero ship, that's different. When you have massive fleets and can't tell one ship from another, then that might get confusing. At least that was the logic of the producers. But I don't think even the casual fan is that stupid. Even in Message in a Bottle, I didn't think either ship was the Defiant, mainly because there's more than one Defiant class ship, and...why the hell would it have been there and not in the Bajoran sector?

 

[The Wormhole]

Even in Message in a Bottle, I didn't think either ship was the Defiant, mainly because there's more than one Defiant class ship, and...why the hell would it have been there and not in the Bajoran sector?

I think it started as a joke, both had the Defiant's name and registry on their hull. Yes, that was a by-product of no one bothering to adjust the CG mesh, but you know how Trek fans can get. Then the fact that one of the guys who beamed onto the Prometheus did regularly show up on DS9 was entered into the mix. Yes, at the time no one expected the guy to be recognized and as it turned out, I think it took ten to fifteen years before someone on Memory Alpha made the connection, but again, you know how Trek fans can get.