Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

[UssGlenn]

Also, Spock was mentally fine (as well as can be given his irradiated condition) for the 5 or so minutes after he transferred his katra to McCoy, meaning the katra transfer basically copies his memories instead of cutting and pasting them onto McCoy (otherwise he would be like "Who are you guys? What am I doing in this chamber? How do I even know how to speak?")

It's not plausible he could have transferred everything in the scant seconds he was touching McCoy. Therefore he must have established a telepathic link that continued during that time. So it transferred at whatever rate is normal and once the body is dead the last bit jumps over all at once, which it can do only at the end when it no longer has the original host.

 

[Yistaan]

It's not plausible he could have transferred everything in the scant seconds he was touching McCoy. Therefore he must have established a telepathic link that continued during that time. So it transferred at whatever rate is normal and once the body is dead the last bit jumps over all at once, which it can do only at the end when it no longer has the original host.

I think in Enterprise Surak's katra jumped around during very short mind melds. Also didn't Spock and T'Pring literally swap bodies not too long ago? I don't think other katric transfers in Trek back up your claim that it needs a long period of time.

 

[UssGlenn]

I think in Enterprise Surak's katra jumped around during very short mind melds. Also didn't Spock and T'Pring literally swap bodies not too long ago? I don't think other katric transfers in Trek back up your claim that it needs a long period of time.

True, but even if the transfer is quick, a lasting link until death is still required since Spock had memories from inside the chamber "Ship, Out of Danger?"

 

[Yistaan]

True, but even if the transfer is quick, a lasting link until death is still required since Spock had memories from inside the chamber "Ship, Out of Danger?"

Honestly I rationalize that as Spock already planning his death speech ahead of time and reciting it in 3, not an actual memory of his death. Not unlike how Quaritch in Avatar deduces his own death by Neytiri and taunts her about it despite not actually remembering said death itself

 

[137th Gebirg]

Nah. The Ark is still at that Daystrom facility with Kirk’s body.

Top men are still checking it out.

 

[FredH]

True, but even if the transfer is quick, a lasting link until death is still required since Spock had memories from inside the chamber "Ship, Out of Danger?"

I just figure that’s what Spock would have said, so Original Spock asked just before he died, and Spock II asks it because to him, the situation just happened.

When I was 12 I thought dying Spock’s katra was still controlling his body for a few last moments, but that’s dumb. Since then I’ve always felt it’s a copying of his neural pattern into the recipient’s brain, meaning Original Spock really does die for good in TWOK, and the Spock of The Search for Spock onwards is a new being with the same memories (aside from those few minutes after “Remember”).

 

[Mudd]

Vulcans just have god-level bandwidth.

 

[FredH]

The existence of the human soul is treated as a matter of fact in the Trekverse.

Which means what, exactly? And how is that different from a katra — if it is, which I kind of doubt?

(Also: where is the soul treated as fact in Trek? Not denying it necessarily, I just don’t remember an example. Most “ghosts” like Bryce Shumar turn out to be fakes.)

 

[Mudd]

Which means what, exactly? And how is that different from a katra — if it is, which I kind of doubt?

(Also: where is the soul treated as fact in Trek? Not denying it necessarily, I just don’t remember an example. Most “ghosts” like Bryce Shumar turn out to be fakes.)

Since neither is real but they share all observable characteristics, the Trek soul=katra.

Human characters in TOS Trek have a essential component comprising their consciousness, memories, and generally their essence which can be extracted, transferred to others, swapped out and replaced. See "Return to Tomorrow" and "Turnabout Intruder" among other examples.

 

[FredH]

Since neither is real but they share all observable characteristics, the Trek soul=katra.

Human characters in Trek have a essential component comprising their consciousness, memories, and generally their essence which can be extracted, transferred to others, swapped out and replaced. See "Return to Tomorrow" and "Turnabout Intruder" among other examples.

Okay — though I think it can be debated those too are examples of neural patterns being copied and rewritten, rather than somebody’s internal “ghost” flying between bodies. (Though it might be! I’ve never forgotten the Babylon 5 equivalent, where disembodied souls are visible as tiny translucent people inside floating globes…)

EDIT: And hey, you thought 22nd-century humanity’s resentment of the Vulcans for not sharing enough technology was bad? Wait’ll people hear that the Vulcans have been sitting on the ability to fix death! (Or at least keep one’s consciousness around.)

 

[UssGlenn]

See "Return to Tomorrow" and "Turnabout Intruder" among other examples.

Korby certainly believed it to be the case in WALGMO, even if the final product is debatable.

 

[Mudd]

Korby certainly believed it to be the case in WALGMO, even if the final product is debatable.

Yeah, I exempted that one as ambiguous and unnecessary to the point.

 

[Yistaan]

EDIT: And hey, you thought 22nd-century humanity’s resentment of the Vulcans for not sharing enough technology was bad? Wait’ll people hear that the Vulcans have been sitting on the ability to fix death! (Or at least keep one’s consciousness around.)

Well, Jonathan Archer obviously knew about it after Enterprise. You think this would be required reading at the Academy yet Admiral Morrow dismisses it as Vulcan mumbo-jumbo or whatever. Yet M'Benga is unphased by Spock's body switch with T'Pring some 25 years before Morrow's dismissive attitude.

It sounds like certain humans like Morrow were close-minded and probably laughed at anyone who tried to take the katra stuff seriously, which I could imagine would hamper research into resurrection into clone bodies etc. If the Vulcans did any research on their side, it obviously got nowhere as fal-tor-pan is said to be successful only in myth so yeah...

 

[cooleddie74]

You know how real world science works. COVID-19 is indisputable medical and scientific fact. It exists. But for years and years people will call it mumbo-jumbo and B.S.

I mean....flat Earthers. Need I say more?

 

[fireproof78]

Okay — though I think it can be debated those too are examples of neural patterns being copied and rewritten, rather than somebody’s internal “ghost” flying between bodies. (Though it might be! I’ve never forgotten the Babylon 5 equivalent, where disembodied souls are visible as tiny translucent people inside floating globes…)

I mean, in Return to Tomorrow Kirk's consciousness is moved to a globe while Sargon used his body. In Cathexis Chakotay's consciousness moves about and influences crew members and computers while his body is unconscious in Sickbay.