Star Wars Rebels Season Two (spoilers)

[Hartzilla2007]

Also both Tarkin and Vader were extremely aware of her. So someone who was passive wouldn't even have been on their radar.

But she also couldn't be doing anything too major to be traced to her or she would be dead via shot in the face by that point.

They did execute the entire population of her home planet. They were keeping her around to determine where the rebel base was located, no?

Yeah after they caught her in the act.

If they had evidence she was actively taking part in insurgency missions before then they would likely have sent a fleet of Star Destroyers to blockade Alderaan, landed troops on the planet, arrested her and Bail, having a few mass executions just to more sure got the message of not fucking with the Empire, and then putting a Moff in charge of the planet to begin oppressing the masses.

I also think people are blowing Leia being in charge of getting the Death Star plans out of proportion since really her job on that was getting the already stolen plans to Alderaan after they were transmitted to them by the Rebel force that actually stole the plans, after stopping at Tatooine to pick up Kenobi.

So basically it was using diplomatic immunity to move already acquired sensitive material around under the nose of the Empire and likely trying to avoid any confrontations with the Empire seeing as the Tantive IV would likely be outmatched by anything sent after them.

 

[Christopher]

I also think people are blowing Leia being in charge of getting the Death Star plans out of proportion since really her job on that was getting the already stolen plans to Alderaan after they were transmitted to them by the Rebel force that actually stole the plans, after stopping at Tatooine to pick up Kenobi.

So basically it was using diplomatic immunity to move already acquired sensitive material around under the nose of the Empire and likely trying to avoid any confrontations with the Empire seeing as the Tantive IV would likely be outmatched by anything sent after them.

Well, yes, obviously she wasn't a known Rebel sympathizer prior to that, or she would've been arrested before. But even though Tarkin and Vader had no earlier proof of her Rebel sympathies, it's pretty clear that they suspected her already. And it's quite clear from her skills that she's been operating secretly as a Rebel agent and has trained in combat, espionage, and so forth. It's her public face as a "mere" princess/senator that enables her to be effective as a secret Rebel operative, but she undeniably has the training to handle herself in the event of her discovery, as we see in the film.

 

[Corran Horn]

Also both Tarkin and Vader were extremely aware of her. So someone who was passive wouldn't even have been on their radar.

"There'll be no escape for the princess this time". She's been in the shit.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I also think people are blowing Leia being in charge of getting the Death Star plans out of proportion since really her job on that was getting the already stolen plans to Alderaan after they were transmitted to them by the Rebel force that actually stole the plans, after stopping at Tatooine to pick up Kenobi.

So basically it was using diplomatic immunity to move already acquired sensitive material around under the nose of the Empire and likely trying to avoid any confrontations with the Empire seeing as the Tantive IV would likely be outmatched by anything sent after them.

Well, yes, obviously she wasn't a known Rebel sympathizer prior to that, or she would've been arrested before. But even though Tarkin and Vader had no earlier proof of her Rebel sympathies, it's pretty clear that they suspected her already. And it's quite clear from her skills that she's been operating secretly as a Rebel agent and has trained in combat, espionage, and so forth. It's her public face as a "mere" princess/senator that enables her to be effective as a secret Rebel operative, but she undeniably has the training to handle herself in the event of her discovery, as we see in the film.

Yes, but that doesn't really point to too much involvement in the actually Rebel cell operations outside of likely smuggling them equipment or organizing them via hologram as people in the relatively high positions don't tend to do the grunt work.

Especially since the title crawl from A New Hope gives the impression that Rebel Alliance didn't do anything major until they stole the Death Star plans.

Which is probably why they're focusing on relatively small time players like the Ghost crew since it lets them focus on the small scale raids and minor operations the Rebellion was pulling off at the time.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Especially since the title crawl from A New Hope gives the impression that Rebel Alliance didn't do anything major until they stole the Death Star plans.

On the contrary. The SW'77 crawl implies that they've suffered losses before. The Rebel ships were striking from the secret base for some time before they won their first victory during the stealing of the plans. That's why it's a period of civil war instead of just the moment civil war breaks out.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Especially since the title crawl from A New Hope gives the impression that Rebel Alliance didn't do anything major until they stole the Death Star plans.

On the contrary. The SW'77 crawl implies that they've suffered losses before. The Rebel ships were striking from the secret base for some time before they won their first victory during the stealing of the plans. That's why it's a period of civil war instead of just the moment civil war breaks out.

Actually it says

Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

It doesn't say they've been doing this for a while just that they did it for the battle where they stole the Death Star plans, for all we know they were raiding supplies for a while to build up enough stuff for this one battle.

And they couldn't have been getting their asses kick too much as the Imperial Senate didn't seem to be going to far to hide that they were sympathetic too them something which is likely to have a guy from the ESB show up to have a "chat" about it with them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yes, that quote from the crawl is the one I was referring to (although you left out the previous part about it being a period of civil war). In saying they've won their first victory, in the established context of it being a period of civil war, it implies that they've fought and lost before.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Well "major" is a relative term. I think the point is that, from Rebels Season 2 to right before ANH, they're essentially fighting a guerilla war. Generally speaking, any victory might seem small or insignificant on its own.

But the stealing of the Death Star plans was the first time they worked as a large unified group set-out to achieve a much great objective.

 

[Christopher]

Actually it says

Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

It doesn't say they've been doing this for a while just that they did it for the battle where they stole the Death Star plans, for all we know they were raiding supplies for a while to build up enough stuff for this one battle.

Hmm... Actually, if you read that literally, it's not saying that the Rebellion has won its first victory against the Empire -- it's saying that the spaceships operating out of the hidden base have won their first victory. Now, Lucas probably intended it to say that it was the Rebellion's first victory, but if so, then he used bad grammar to express it. So we're free to interpret it to mean that other Rebel entities have won victories before, even though these specific ships have not.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Or maybe isolated rebel cells working by themselves have had victories, but this was the first victory for the newly consolidated Rebel Alliance as an organized entity.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

As Christopher points out, and as I did too really, the crawl is just talking about space battles, involving ships striking from a secret base. The pattern we can expect to see during Rebels is that the Rebels will not be able to go toe-to-toe with Imperial warships. We know that they'll be outclassed. We've seen that already during "The Siege of Lothal." Somehow, in the battle surrounding the acquisition of the Death Star plans, the Rebels were able to overcome that disadvantage in ship-to-ship warfare—for the first time.

Now, Lucas probably intended it to say that it was the Rebellion's first victory, but if so, then he used bad grammar to express it.

However, I never assumed that at all. It's very clear that it's talking about spaceships. As CorporalClegg pointed out, there were no doubt many victories along the way. Just nothing of that type. As Corran Horn pointed out upthread, C-3PO spoke of prior escapes by the Princess, some of which could well have been during small-scale victories of some kind.

 

[Masiral]

I would imagine her formative years would be rather boring. I doubt she really did much with the Rebellion before ANH, as Bail would want to keep her from attracting too much scrutiny from Palpatine and Vader. And by the time she became a Senator, the Senate was just a rubber stamp for Palpatine, so there wouldn't be much interesting there. That leaves her life as a princess, and I'd rather watch a ragtag bunch of Rebels than another Disney Princess.

How long has it been since you've seen A New Hope? Because that assumption is completely irreconcilable with the evidence in the movie. At the start of the film, Leia was personally delivering the Death Star plans to the Rebel Alliance -- the most important mission in the rebellion's history, and she was the one in charge of it. Not only that, but she was sent to retrieve General Kenobi from Tatooine, a hiding place that was surely secret from everyone but the leaders of the rebellion. Once captured, Leia was strong enough to resist Imperial interrogation and torture. She wasn't cowed when Tarkin threatened her with execution. And once Luke and Han "rescued" her, she proved to be at least as capable a fighter as either of them, and considerably more resourceful in a crisis. She was also the only one who realized that they were allowed to escape so they could be tracked (although it's unclear why they didn't do anything with that knowledge). She clearly had experience with espionage, combat, and strategy. She was as far from a pampered princess as you could get.

I mean, come on, that's what was so inspired and revolutionary about Leia Organa as a character back in the '70s. Even though she was cast in the traditional damsel-in-distress role, she totally blew that trope out of the water by being a better action hero than either of the men who came to her rescue. That was something we hadn't really seen onscreen before, and it's a large part of Leia's enduring impact.

I never said she was a pampered princess. She absolutely is strong-willed and I'm sure she had combat training and training to resist torture, nowhere near being the stereotypical damsel-in-distress. But she wasn't on the front lines, leading the charge. She was transporting important people and information, like General Kenobi and the Death Star plans, very important missions, but not combat-oriented. Her position as a princess and a senator prevent her from fighting battles, and the Alderaanians were never the military arm of the Rebellion anyways, as according to Leia herself, Alderaan was a peaceful planet with no weapons. Leia and Bail Organs are the diplomatic side of the Rebellion, neither of them are fighting battles. She would not be in the situations that Kanan, Hera, and their team find themselves in, because she is too valuable to the cause. A New Hope was just as much Leia's call to action as it was Luke's. Before that, neither of them really have a story that could sustain a weekly television series.

 

[Christopher]

I never said she was a pampered princess. She absolutely is strong-willed and I'm sure she had combat training and training to resist torture, nowhere near being the stereotypical damsel-in-distress. But she wasn't on the front lines, leading the charge.

I never said she was. Obviously her participation in the Rebellion was secret up to that point. But it's just as obvious that she was a participant.

She was transporting important people and information, like General Kenobi and the Death Star plans, very important missions, but not combat-oriented.

So? The question on the table is whether Leia's experiences before ANH would be interesting to learn about. Combat is far from the only interesting thing in fiction. Leia was serving the Rebellion in secret, using her royal and senatorial status as a cover for clandestine operations. In other words, she was a spy. Since when were spy stories not interesting? I mean, think about it. She's a nominal member of the Imperial Senate, but she's secretly working to undermine the institution she pretends to serve, and she's constantly risking exposure and execution. That is just loaded with suspense! How can you think that wouldn't be interesting?

 

[Masiral]

I never said she was a pampered princess. She absolutely is strong-willed and I'm sure she had combat training and training to resist torture, nowhere near being the stereotypical damsel-in-distress. But she wasn't on the front lines, leading the charge.

I never said she was. Obviously her participation in the Rebellion was secret up to that point. But it's just as obvious that she was a participant.

She was transporting important people and information, like General Kenobi and the Death Star plans, very important missions, but not combat-oriented.

So? The question on the table is whether Leia's experiences before ANH would be interesting to learn about. Combat is far from the only interesting thing in fiction. Leia was serving the Rebellion in secret, using her royal and senatorial status as a cover for clandestine operations. In other words, she was a spy. Since when were spy stories not interesting?

Leia was a courier, not Agent Carter. She's delivering things from Point A to Point B, not infiltrating Imperial bases.

I mean, think about it. She's a nominal member of the Imperial Senate, but she's secretly working to undermine the institution she pretends to serve, and she's constantly risking exposure and execution. That is just loaded with suspense! How can you think that wouldn't be interesting?

Interesting in a film or a novel? Yes. In a weekly animated half-hour show on a Disney channel? No. What you're describing is a political thriller, not a show for kids. The target audience doesn't care about Imperial politics. Heck, even adults complained that there was too much politics in the prequels and the Senate scenes were like watching C-SPAN.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Leia was a courier, not Agent Carter.

Sorry, but, we really don't know what other canonical missions Leia had been on prior to the events of the OT. All we know is that she hadn't been captured or positively identified in connection with Rebel activity until she was captured at the start of SW'77. It's been pointed out that Leia was well trained in infantry tactics. Her adventures prior to the OT are wide open.

 

[Masiral]

Leia was a courier, not Agent Carter.

Sorry, but, we really don't know what other canonical missions Leia had been on prior to the events of the OT. All we know is that she hadn't been captured or positively identified in connection with Rebel activity until she was captured at the start of SW'77. It's been pointed out that Leia was well trained in infantry tactics. Her adventures prior to the OT are wide open.

Nor do we know that she was on any other canonical missions prior to the events of the OT. But the point still remains that she is a princess and a senator. She can't be going on secret missions to infiltrate bases or fighting battles, any more than Bail Organs can. To use a real-world example, MI6 isn't going to send Prince William undercover to infiltrate ISIS. Nor is Princess Leia going to be sent to infiltrate an Imperial base.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Nor do we know that she was on any other canonical missions prior to the events of the OT.

Yes, we do.

Corran Horn pointed out upthread that C-3PO spoke of prior escapes by the Princess:

"There'll be no escape for the princess this time". She's been in the shit.

What we don't know is what missions C-3PO was referring to (but it is reasonable that they were in fact "missions"). It could be something she was using diplomatic cover for (and there were at least some of those, as per what Vader said to her right after she was captured), or it could also be something else.

Bottom line here, you seem to think the possibilities are more constrained than some of the rest of us do, and some of us are open to possibilities that you don't seem to be open to. At this point, none of us know what Rebels has in store.

 

[Ithekro]

Another point is the conversation between Darth Vader and the officer after he captures Leia.

"Holding her is dangerous. If word gets out it could generate sympathy in the Senate for the Rebellion".

Also "She'll die before she tells you anything."

And these are the Imperials ideas about her. She is Vader's only link to finding the Rebel's hidden base.

Judging by 3PO's lines they'd been in quite a few fights in service of the Rebellion. He claims his stories wouldn't be very interesting, but then he's also basically lying about knowing who Princess Leia is when the hologram shows up.

 

[Reverend]

I think it's pretty obvious that Leia's rebel sympathies were no secret to the likes of Vader and Tarkin.

Note that in 'Siege of Lothal' Minister Tua mentions that there are several known rebels who are left alone because they have powerful friends in the senate. Bail and by extension Leia are probably among them. Mon Mothma too I'd imagine. Based on that and the dialogue in ANH, the Empire seems to know they're involved but don't have enough solid proof to try them for treason without significant backlash.

Remember that in this time (and right up until ANH) the senate was still a relevant and powerful body that the Emperor needed to manage all the thousands of planetary bureaucracies. It wasn't until the Death Star went fully online that Palpatine did away with them (probably including a "night of the long knives" type situation that sent the likes of Mon Mothma fleeing underground) on the theory that it would allow them to enforce martial law across the galaxy.

It's actually interesting to think that this act may have been what ultimately doomed the Empire. With the senate gone and the Death Star destroyed, they'd have to depend on that Imperial star fleet to keep order *and* chase down the rebels, probably all the while being harassed by guerilla actions. Endor was probably as much of a last stand for the Empire as it was for the Alliance.

Anyway, for the record, here's the ANH opening crawl in full: -

It is a period of civil war.
Rebel spaceships, striking
from a hidden base, have won
their first victory against
the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, rebel
spies managed to steal secret
plans to the Empire's
ultimate weapon, the DEATH
STAR, an armored space
station with enough power to
destroy an entire planet.

Pursued by the Empire's
sinister agents, Princess
Leia races home aboard her
starship, custodian of the
stolen plans that can save
her people and restore
freedom to the galaxy....​

You can split hairs of you choose to do so, but the intended implication is clearly in that this battle was the Alliance's first (successful) head-on fight with the Empire. Presumably hitting an Imperial facility (maybe even the not-yet-online Death Star itself) where the plans were stored. Based on the text, the point was to create enough of a distraction to allow embedded agents to get to data and transmit it to Leia's ship.

Indeed, I have the shooting script in-front of me and there's an extra line of dialogue that implies that Leia's ship was in the system during the battle.

LEIA​

Lord Vader, I should have known.
Only you could be so bold. The
Imperial Senate will not sit for
this, when they hear you've attacked
a diplomatic...

VADER​

Don't play games with me, Your
Highness. You weren't on any mercy
mission this time. You passed directly
through a restricted system. Several
transmissions were beamed to this
ship by Rebel spies. I want to know
what happened to the plans they sent
you.

LEIA​

I don't know what you're talking
about. I'm a member of the Imperial
Senate on a diplomatic mission to
Alderaan...

VADER​

You're a part of the Rebel Alliance...
and a traitor. Take her away!

If that system was where the Death Star was being built, then it was probably Geonosis (according to Lucas IIRC), which actually makes a lot of sense if their next stop was Tatooine, given that AotC established they were relatively close by.

Ironic that the last time a Skywalker and a Naberrie were both in that system it started a war, and there they are again.

 

[Relayer1]

Does anyone know when we get Season 2 in England ?