Star Wars Rebels Season Two (spoilers)
- Thread starter CorporalCaptain
- Start date
Watch the movie again. You've clearly forgotten a great deal. It's inconceivable that anyone could watch that film and come away with the impression that Leia was nothing more than a courier, that this was the first thing she'd ever done for the Rebellion. Good grief, that's like saying that Sarah Connor was just a damsel in distress and Ellen Ripley was just a screaming co-ed in a slasher film! You're talking about one of the seminal, stereotype-breaking female action heroes in film.
I had a feeling you were going to go for that straw man. Just because the prequels handled it poorly, that doesn't mean it can never be handled excitingly.
The problem is that you're only trying to think of reasons why it would be a bad idea. Try applying the same effort to thinking of reasons that it could work, and you may surprise yourself. Negative thinking is a self-fulfilling prophecy -- but positive thinking can be as well.
Actually it lines up with the radio drama version of A New Hope where they had to go to a restricted system to pick up the transmission while faking engine trouble in case the Empire showed up, which of course they did.
No it just gives the impression that the Rebellion doesn't likely involve their members in the government positions (where they would be under increased scrutiny by the Empire) in combat missions where they can get exposed, especially if they have important intel on the Rebellion that could royal screw them should they break under torture and interrogation, especially if these are likely to be minor combat missions and supply raids.
As opposed to your position which comes of as saying M from James Bond should be the one infiltrating enemy bases and stopping the nut jobs with doomsday weapons instead of sending Bond to do it.
Honestly Leia was probably too important in the Rebellion hierarchy to be doing too many assaults on imperial bases.
so they just sent in her childhood friend and aide
(but that was in the EU books so no longer canon)
so they just sent in her childhood friend and aide
(but that was in the EU books so no longer canon)
At which point they switch places so that Leia looks like she's still going official Imperial government work, but really its Winter while Leia's off working with a Rebel cell undermining the Empire directly.
so they just sent in her childhood friend and aide
(but that was in the EU books so no longer canon)
At which point they switch places so that Leia looks like she's still going official Imperial government work, but really its Winter while Leia's off working with a Rebel cell undermining the Empire directly.
And then if they're not careful the Empire arrests both of them until they figure out which ones the rebel so they can shoot them while Bail hopes the Empire doesn't make Alderaan suffer for it and also hoping Leia doesn't lose enough clout in the Senate that the Rebellion starts losing sympathy since at that point a direct war with the Empire would be suicide.
This is exactly my point. Her position in the Rebellion hierarchy prevents her from going on those types of missions, just like it prevents Mon Mothma or Bail Organa from going on those missions. Leia is a politician and a diplomat first, a warrior second. It's the same reason the Padme episodes of The Clone Wars were about politics, while the Anakin and Obi-Wan episodes were about battles. Leia and Padme are both excellent fighters, but that's not their job.
Leia never holds a military rank, unlike Commander Skywalker and Generals Solo and Calrissian. In The Empire Strikes Back, Leia doesn't fight in the Battle of Hoth, she's evacuated, because she's too important to the Rebellion. In the Legends continuity prior to ANH, she ferries Rebel spies and goes on diplomatic missions. She doesn't lead or participate in assaults on Imperial targets.
I don't think the prequels handled it poorly at all. I love seeing and reading about politics in Star Wars. However, I don't think the audience is interested in politics in a Star Wars movie. There's only about 10 minutes or so in Episode I, and people are still complaining about it 16 years later.
I have thought of ways it could work - a film or a novel, or maybe even a show on ABC (hey, that could work - maybe some sort of Revenge/Scandal mix with less sex). I would love to see a Princess Leia film set before ANH. Who do you think could play young Leia? I think Maisie Williams would be a good fit.
Which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about! I have never at any point claimed that Leia was going out on frontline combat missions. That would be a stupid thing to say, because it's obvious from the movie that she's never acted overtly as a Rebel, or she would've been arrested before then. We've already established that repeatedly, so I have no idea where you got the mistaken impression that that is the subject of this discussion in any way. That is a completely different subject from what I'm interested in here, and I have no clue why we're talking about it.
What I'm interested in, as I've said, is how Leia got to where she was in ANH. And as we've established over and over, she was clearly capable of handling herself in action whether or not she had actual experience in it. So obviously she must have been trained as a fighter and strategist, as well as being in the inner circle of the planners of the Rebellion. That's what I'm interested in seeing -- her training. Her growth. I want to know how this 19-year-old girl became such a key figure in the Rebellion and such a badass.
I particularly want to know about her relationship with Bail and how they ended up working together. After all, fathers are generally very protective of their daughters. You'd think Bail would want to keep Leia out of the dangerous stuff. Which suggests that she had to prove herself to him, perhaps defying him and putting herself at risk in order to demonstrate what she was capable of. That's a classic adventure storyline for young viewers -- child heroes (and heroines) defying their protective parents and going on adventures to prove themselves and earn the full trust and respect of their parents. That could definitely appeal to kids, and the drama of the father and daughter learning to see eye to eye could appeal to adults. There is absolutely interesting story potential there.
<< At which point they switch places so that Leia looks like she's still going official Imperial government work, but really its Winter while Leia's off working with a Rebel cell undermining the Empire directly. >>
Did they actually say that? I'd forgotten that. Winter looks EXACTLY like Leia? What about her white hair? Is that where George got the idea for Padme/Amidala doubles in TPM???
Did they actually say that? I'd forgotten that. Winter looks EXACTLY like Leia? What about her white hair? Is that where George got the idea for Padme/Amidala doubles in TPM???
Assuming this series continues until around the time of A New Hope, I would expect to see Leia show up in later seasons. Bail might be the behind the scenes leader type, but Leia is more the hands on type. They won't need her as much if they keep Ashoka, but at some point Leia (who's like a week at most younger than Ezra) will need to step up to her role. She's been active before the events of the first film. Han's been smuggling while Luke was basically on the farm the whole time. Leia's the one that was always strong (according to Luke). What we don't know is when she became active, nor when she became a senator. She'd presently be the same age in Rebels as her Mother was when Padme became Queen of Naboo (an elected position.) Padme didn't become a Senator until about eight years later after finishing her term of office as queen (term limits on queens as well as the chancellorship of the Republic, but seeming not for senators, maybe). So if she's her mother's daughter with that fire of the Skywalker line as well, she'll be out there soon enough.
Leia might not have fought in the Battle of Hoth, but she was coordinating the battle until Imperial troops entered the base and Han told her that was it, they had to go. She was one of the last to be evacuated when the retreat signal was given. And even then, she still had to get out with Solo anyway. A year later she was doing infiltration work as a bounty hunter to get into Jabba's Palace. While she was captured, Luke is not worried about her, just Han. Leia can take care of herself. Later she's on the mission to attack the shield bunker on Endor. Again front line work. She's command staff for the shuttle under General Solo, but still, they went in for combat.
Her roll in Rebels, should she appear, would be diplomatic front for the new Alliance to Restore the Republic. Getting worlds and the various rebel cells to join the larger rebellion against the Empire. Running that can be very dangerous work. The Empire has spies too. Also not every rebel cell is going to want to go in with the Alliance unless the Alliance can prove itself. She would have to prove the Alliances worth with the Ghost crew in a Rebels story. They might have to run her around in places were the Tantive IV might be noticed. Or go in to retrieve her when something went wrong, or in a reversal, have her be the one to go in to get them out of an Imperial entanglement. "Mercy Missions"? Get Rebels out a jail free cards? Princess Leia Organa, Senator.
Winter's physical features are very similar to Leia's in most artwork. All she needs is a dark colored wig or hair coloring, and she could pass for Leia Organa. They are basically sisters (Winter was adopted by Bail as well. Winter being the more regal of the two while Leia is described as a tomboy.
Leia might not have fought in the Battle of Hoth, but she was coordinating the battle until Imperial troops entered the base and Han told her that was it, they had to go. She was one of the last to be evacuated when the retreat signal was given. And even then, she still had to get out with Solo anyway. A year later she was doing infiltration work as a bounty hunter to get into Jabba's Palace. While she was captured, Luke is not worried about her, just Han. Leia can take care of herself. Later she's on the mission to attack the shield bunker on Endor. Again front line work. She's command staff for the shuttle under General Solo, but still, they went in for combat.
Her roll in Rebels, should she appear, would be diplomatic front for the new Alliance to Restore the Republic. Getting worlds and the various rebel cells to join the larger rebellion against the Empire. Running that can be very dangerous work. The Empire has spies too. Also not every rebel cell is going to want to go in with the Alliance unless the Alliance can prove itself. She would have to prove the Alliances worth with the Ghost crew in a Rebels story. They might have to run her around in places were the Tantive IV might be noticed. Or go in to retrieve her when something went wrong, or in a reversal, have her be the one to go in to get them out of an Imperial entanglement. "Mercy Missions"? Get Rebels out a jail free cards? Princess Leia Organa, Senator.
Winter's physical features are very similar to Leia's in most artwork. All she needs is a dark colored wig or hair coloring, and she could pass for Leia Organa. They are basically sisters (Winter was adopted by Bail as well. Winter being the more regal of the two while Leia is described as a tomboy.
Small point, but I'm pretty sure Leia *does* hold a military rank in the Rebellion. In tESB her Hoth outfit clearly has a rank insignia over the left breast just like everyone else, she briefs the X-Wing pilots on the evacuation strategy and spends the battle in the command centre (where she was the very first time we see her, giving Han the stink eye), giving orders and coordinating the evacuation efforts and is the among the *LAST* command personnel to evacuate.
Indeed, from all of that it seems clear she was in charge of the base evacuation while General Rieekan commanded the escort and ground forces. Hell, by the time Solo turns up to drag her away, it looks like she's in command of whoever is left standing.
Since I doubt Rieekan would evacuate and leave Leia behind and isn't present when Han shows up, I'm assuming he died when the command centre was hit. Certainly, as far as the script is concerned he disappears after the order to launch two transports at a time and evacuate all the remaining ground staff.
As for why nobody ever calls her by rank, AFAIK, etiquette generally requires that when addressing a person of Leia's station, their royal title takes precedence, regardless of any military rank they might hold. So yes, even military personnel should address her as "Princess" or "Your Highness".
Why she isn't "Queen" after her adoptive parents died is a whole other debate.
Indeed, from all of that it seems clear she was in charge of the base evacuation while General Rieekan commanded the escort and ground forces. Hell, by the time Solo turns up to drag her away, it looks like she's in command of whoever is left standing.
Since I doubt Rieekan would evacuate and leave Leia behind and isn't present when Han shows up, I'm assuming he died when the command centre was hit. Certainly, as far as the script is concerned he disappears after the order to launch two transports at a time and evacuate all the remaining ground staff.
As for why nobody ever calls her by rank, AFAIK, etiquette generally requires that when addressing a person of Leia's station, their royal title takes precedence, regardless of any military rank they might hold. So yes, even military personnel should address her as "Princess" or "Your Highness".
Why she isn't "Queen" after her adoptive parents died is a whole other debate.
Why she isn't "Queen" after her adoptive parents died is a whole other debate.
Queen of the asteroid field where Alderaan used to be?
Why she isn't "Queen" after her adoptive parents died is a whole other debate.
Queen of the asteroid field where Alderaan used to be?
As opposed to the Princess of an asteroid field?
The obvious rational is simply the real-world reason that because she was established as "Princess Leia" in the first movie, that's how Lucas continued to refer to her for the sake of familiarity.
For my own head canon, I like to suppose she specifically chose *not* to take to title of Queen for the surviving Alderaanians (after all, a monarch is a monarch or their people, not the dirt they happen to be standing on) as a symbol. Either of mourning, or a promise of unfinished business with the Empire.
Anyway, getting back to Rebels, I do wonder if we'll get to see anything of Leia's adoptive mother. A detail that seems to get lost quite often is that she's the ruler of Alderaan, not Bail who is the Prince Consort. That said, did Lucas ever clarify the whole bit about Leia remembering her "real mother"? Is it a strong-in-the-force connection with Padme even as an infant (if so, why didn't Luke also remember?) or is Bail's wife the woman she remembers who died when she was very young?
Probably the former, because if it's the latter, then who's ruling Alderaan by this point? They've already established that Bail is still Senator of Alderaan and it hardly seems likely that a ruler of a planet would also represent said planet in the Imperial Senate. We do know that within the next 4-5 years (or however much time is left before the events of ANH kick in) Leia will succeed him, but that doesn't account for the 15 or so years that the planet was (potentially) monarch-less.
I do wonder what the initial idea was regarding Padme back when they made RotJ. Was she meant to survive on Alderaan for a few years before succumbing to...something? It might certainly account for the abrupt "dying of a broken heart" thing if it was originally envisioned as a slow process of depression, gradually fading away until the body just gives up ("She was very beautiful. Kind, but....sad.") which sounds poetic on paper, but doesn't have the immediacy needed for the end of RotJ.
Why she isn't "Queen" after her adoptive parents died is a whole other debate.
Queen of the asteroid field where Alderaan used to be?
As opposed to the Princess of an asteroid field?
The obvious rational is simply the real-world reason that because she was established as "Princess Leia" in the first movie, that's how Lucas continued to refer to her for the sake of familiarity.
For my own head canon, I like to suppose she specifically chose *not* to take to title of Queen for the surviving Alderaanians (after all, a monarch is a monarch or their people, not the dirt they happen to be standing on) as a symbol. Either of mourning, or a promise of unfinished business with the Empire.
This was actually addressed in the just completed (and canonical) "Princess Leia" mini from Marvel written by Mark Waid.
Taking place right after A New Hope, Leia, Artoo and Leia's fellow Alderaanian rebel Evaan go on a quest to assemble and unite surviving Alderaanians and protect them from the Empire.
In the end, Leia sends the Alderaanians off to their new home, with the wish that they elect a new princess (with Evaan getting Leia's endorsement) to lead them as she feels that she can't abandon the Rebellion while the Empire still exists.
I've never paid super close attention to the crawl itself but could it be that it's saying that stealing the plans is actually the victory and not the battle itself?
Why she isn't "Queen" after her adoptive parents died is a whole other debate.
Queen of the asteroid field where Alderaan used to be?
As opposed to the Princess of an asteroid field?
The obvious rational is simply the real-world reason that because she was established as "Princess Leia" in the first movie, that's how Lucas continued to refer to her for the sake of familiarity.
For my own head canon, I like to suppose she specifically chose *not* to take to title of Queen for the surviving Alderaanians (after all, a monarch is a monarch or their people, not the dirt they happen to be standing on) as a symbol. Either of mourning, or a promise of unfinished business with the Empire.
Anyway, getting back to Rebels, I do wonder if we'll get to see anything of Leia's adoptive mother. A detail that seems to get lost quite often is that she's the ruler of Alderaan, not Bail who is the Prince Consort. That said, did Lucas ever clarify the whole bit about Leia remembering her "real mother"? Is it a strong-in-the-force connection with Padme even as an infant (if so, why didn't Luke also remember?) or is Bail's wife the woman she remembers who died when she was very young?
Probably the former, because if it's the latter, then who's ruling Alderaan by this point? They've already established that Bail is still Senator of Alderaan and it hardly seems likely that a ruler of a planet would also represent said planet in the Imperial Senate. We do know that within the next 4-5 years (or however much time is left before the events of ANH kick in) Leia will succeed him, but that doesn't account for the 15 or so years that the planet was (potentially) monarch-less.
I do wonder what the initial idea was regarding Padme back when they made RotJ. Was she meant to survive on Alderaan for a few years before succumbing to...something? It might certainly account for the abrupt "dying of a broken heart" thing if it was originally envisioned as a slow process of depression, gradually fading away until the body just gives up ("She was very beautiful. Kind, but....sad.") which sounds poetic on paper, but doesn't have the immediacy needed for the end of RotJ.
I agree with pretty much everything here. I was just teasing. But what I was trying to hint at in a roundabout way is that Alderaan may not actually have a government in exile during the rest of the OT. It's considered really vulgar to crown oneself as a monarch. It doesn't fit my image of Leia's character that she would exhibit any such ambition, so another possibility could simply be that, in the absence of a legitimate government to elevate her to the throne, her title may have simply stood where it was.
I think that the compelling need in the narrative for Padmé to have died at the end of ROTS is that something needs to prevent Vader from stopping at nothing to find her. If Padmé hides out on Alderaan, then Leia likely won't stay hidden when Vader crashes that party. On the other hand, an actual body that Vader can confirm to have existed eliminates any reason for him to try to find her. So, I too favor the idea that Leia saw Padmé in a Force-vision of the past when she was very young. As to why Luke didn't have a similar vision, well, they needn't be the same in every way.
I've no idea what Lucas has said on any of this.
edit: Ah, just saw Turtletrekker's post on the "Leia mini." That's all news to me.
The way it's worded it seems as though the battle was a victory. Not that stealing the plans wasn't probably was the whole point in the first place mind.
"Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.
During the battle, rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon"
Note that after mentioning the victory, it says "the battle" as opposed to "a battle" which is how you'd phrase it if the victory was the theft alone. It sounds as if the strike was a successful one with most of the pilots making it back to Yavin...which implies the slightly depressing notion that most of them were subsequently wiped out in the trench run.
I wonder if 'Rogue One' will address that Red Squadron appeared to have two empty spots to fill (Luke and Biggs having gotten there after after the fact.)
Well, the final issue of the mini came out all of four days ago, so you can be forgiven for not having heard about it.
And while I'm on the subject, it is a story I would highly reccomend once it hits trade. Mark Waid is one of Marvel's best writers and he writes a Leia who bristles at the thought of being protected and being considered a "symbol" rather than a leader.
