Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x08 - "Under the Cloak of War"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
First off, you only finally directly answered after my second attempt. You kept dancing around it by saying 'no one can kill someone just because they are bothering them'.
And regarding reasonable force... you think it's unreasonable force to kill someone with the knife that they themselves are trying to kill you with? I hope you never have to go through such an experience because plenty of people have. That's why it's called self-defense.
Klingons don't have multiple hearts. They have an 8 chambered heart, which is double the usual amount of chambers for humans, but it is not two hearts. And Picard got his artificial heart in the 24th century... that's about 50 years in the future of this episode. Plus, as a human, Federation medicine knows far more about humans than Klingons.
The makers may have said Dak'Rah's motivation was real, but Robert Wisdom certainly didn't portray it like that. He came off as a smarmy douche.
And how is it a misjudgment of harassment when someone repeatedly is being asked to leave and be left alone but doesn't?
And the way the scene is shown, with M'Benga near a wall and Dak'Rah at the only exit with the knife on the table directly next to him? Seems pretty clear to me.
And it wasn't a case of M'Benga not being able to restrain himself... in a fight for your life, you do whatever it takes to survive.
The Klingons had no interest in trying to revive him, though.
on the contrary: like in the episode you seem only to see what you want to see. And you kept pestering me on something that was never an issue and I had already answered several times. Perhaps I should tell you to stop and kill you if you don’t.
You don’t know this is what happened.
And again you are pestering me with questions about things that have nothing to do with the issue here and hat I never questioned.
Bold of you to assume I’ve never been in a self-defence situation.
to you.
He obviously thought he could sway M’Benga and didn’t expect to die?
No really.
Once more, you are only seeing what you want to see into something that’s intentionally left unclear.
The issue IS whether M'Benga was justified in his actions, which is directly linked to my questions of self-defense. And you HAVE stated M'Benga was not justified by calling him an unrestrained killer.
I never assumed you were never in a situation like that... I simply said I hope you never do go through it. And by the way, not everyone who goes through a self-defense situation has had the same circumstances as you may or may not have. Bold of YOU to think otherwise.
And Dak'Rah thinking he can sway M'Benga? That is NOT A JUSTIFICATION FOR HARASSMENT!
And yes, the scene is pretty clear to me. And to a number of other people. I agree there is some room for ambiguity, but from what it appears on screen, I'm going with what I said.
Interesting.
Also, interesting.
I'm going to have to watch again.
I still think M'Benga did it. For me one of the clinchers is the pleading of "such a selfish human!" from Dak'Rah that convinced me.
I will have to watch it again though.
Don't they have security cameras onboard starships?
as said by multiple people, and also by the showmakers, the scene is shot in a way to intentionally leave doubt on what happened.
It could have been straight up murder, and if it was M’Benga was totally responsible of that.
It could have been self defence, but this brings up the issue of excess of force and not trying to revive the ambassador.
It could have even been suicide, but then why would M’Benga and Chapel lie?
You decided that for you it’s clearly the second option, but this is not “clear” to most, as, as said, the scene is intentionally left open to doubt.
sorry, I lost you here.
Yawhn, here we go with putting words into my mouth again. I already asked you to stop, should I prepare a blade?
And, once more (how many times should I write this?) I never said it was.
Security cameras on a ship, sure. But in sickbay, because of privacy issues, they probably don't. Same reason why cameras aren't in patient's rooms today.
The only security camera with a good view of what happened was attached to the malfunctioning biobed number two...
just thought that perhaps the obvious solution to the unfixable biobed 2 issue will be the same as the unfixable M’Benga: replace them.The only security camera with a good view of what happened was attached to the malfunctioning biobed number two...
I'm implying that you saying "it's not that hard" is an indication of privilege.
It’s not that hard to understand that killing someone who is verbally harassing you is wrong. That doesn’t seem “privilege” to me, just one of the basis of society.
That's TWICE that you are saying 'perhaps I should tell you to stop or I should kill you/prepare a blade'. Seriously, what the hell?
And yes, the scene is ambiguous, but it is clear to me.
And AGAIN... Dak'Rah was HARASSING M'Benga because he told Dak'Rah to leave and he did not. Doesn't matter that he was 'trying to sway him'. And my original question was to forget about the death and go by just that... Dak'Rah should have left after the first time he was asked.
I'm done with you on this because you are making it personal by your 'kill you/prepare a blade' statement.
This is why having eyes is not always a good thing.
They are when you wear one on the nipple.
I think it's safe to assume I have not killed anyone for harassing me, or even for raping me. But if a person who's been physically and mentally abused for years snaps and kills their abuser, I will look on that act (from an ethical, moral perspective) far differently than if the abuser kills that person.
Indeed, what the hell? What sane person kills someone bothering them? Getting it now maybe?
and literally nobody said otherwise.
By all means! But this was not the case in the episode. And, as mentioned above, things are hardly black and white.
If such theoretical person killed their abuser after years of being abused they would *probably* be found not guilty of homicide due to the circumstances. But they would definitely have to get trough a trial.
Only if you can prove it.
I'll be shocked if there's not a Season 3 episode where M'Benga stands trial on a charge of homicide or murder. But yeah, I expect we'll have a courtroom episode sometime next season that revolves around the ramifications of this particular story and if Joseph receives vindication or a permanent reprimand on his service record and possible reduction in rank or even temporary removal from the Enterprise.
I definitely don't think this will be the end of it.
My statement was 'what the hell'... as in, 'what the hell is your problem making it personal and saying that'. I never made it personal with you. I was asking you some legitimate questions about self-defense, harassment, etc. And you come at me, TWICE, with 'perhaps I should kill you/prepare a blade'.
It's clear you want to make it personal, so I'm done with you on the episode.
Please don't quote or respond to me again on this episode.
