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Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x08 - "Under the Cloak of War"

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Now in fairness, specifying that Joseph is not a war criminal doesn't address La Girafe's main point, which was that they find it problematic when entertainment media depict a black man as engaging in violence because they feel it feeds into the stereotype that black men are violent and dangerous -- a stereotype that has deadly real-life consequences for black men, who are victims of disproportionate police aggression as a result of this stereotype influencing police behavior.
Depends on the situation, if you showed him doing "Wonton Violence", that's one thing.
This entire episode is from a completely different perspective, one of careful crafting of a war vet dealing with real issues.

I'm sure many war vets can Identify with Joseph over similar issues.


Which, I do hear that concern. I don't think it's invalid. But I'm not convinced that "Under the Cloak of War" wants us to think of Joseph as violent or dangerous, even in the most unfavorable interpretation of the finale. Now, does that mean it won't inadvertently contribute to the stereotype just because of the finale? I don't know. I will say that I think there's a need to balance concerns about the real-life consequences of the imagery an artist creates with the need to tell the particular story that seems most truthful to the artist.
Joseph isn't violent or dangerous, in fact he's far from it.
This is a man who WAS a Patriot & SoF operator, who returned to a life of a Doctor after he got a distaste for war.
But because he didn't help his fellow soldiers, he felt guilt over their deaths for running a suicide mission.

And given the War Criminal actions of Dak'Rah, he felt a need to stop him killing civilians, women, & children and catching the man responsible. Something he never did until after the war.


I didn't watch that finale feeling scared of Joseph or alienated from him. I watched it feeling like there's a strong chance I would have done the same thing. I don't think the episode wants us to feel alienated from or superior to Joseph at all. To me, that felt truthful.
Most people will agree with Joseph and feel he's justified.
I definitely feel closer to Joseph and support him more in his actions of self defense.

What kind of sick perverted idea is UFP Government pulling by having a "Mass Murderer / War Criminal" become a "Saint" and becoming the ambassadors to the Klingon Empire for the UFP.

That's the perverted joke that you should worry about.
 
What kind of sick perverted idea is UFP Government pulling by having a "Mass Murderer / War Criminal" become a "Saint" and becoming the ambassadors to the Klingon Empire for the UFP.

That's the perverted joke that you should worry about.

To be clear, the Twitter user to whom I am reacting is concerned with the real-life impact of entertainment media on public perceptions of black men, not with the fictional actions of fictional governments within a fictional narrative.
 
The Federation didn't know he was a mass murderer.
I'm pretty sure that StarFleet would have the mission report from M'Benga on what happened during the final days of the matter, especially the final mission.

I think they chose to believe Dah'Rak's lies because it was convenient for their propaganda machine.
 
The Federation didn't know he was a mass murderer.

I am not convinced that is the case.

Joseph almost certainly reported back in after he undertook Trask's mission. Why wouldn't he? The Klingon commanders he killed were legitimate military targets. He would have had no reason not to report his actions. Christine probably did the same.

So there's a strong probability that the upper echelons of Starfleet Command and the Federation government knew that Dah'Rak did not kill those commanders, Joseph did. And that means there's a strong chance they knew he Dah'Rak was, by Federation standards, a war criminal -- yet they still chose to accept his defection, grant him Federation citizenship, and make him an ambassador of the Federation.

I grant that their purpose in doing so may have genuinely been to promote peace. But it still seems probable to me that they knew the truth about Dah'Rak yet still chose to make a deal with the Devil.
 
Who ever said he reported it?
After recovering M'Benga, they're not going to get a "After Action Report"?

That seems highly unlikely for StarFleet, a organization that is as bureaucratic & thorough on documenting things.

Especially since M'Benga went on a lone SoF operation.
 
There's no evidence that Starfleet Command new, there's more evidence against them not knowing.

I don't think there's any direct evidence either way.

The question just boils down to, "Would Joseph and Christine have kept Joseph's actions on J'Qal a secret from Starfleet?" If yes, then the Federation likely did not know the truth about Dak'Rah; if no, then the Federation likely knew the truth about Dak'Rah.

I don't see any reason why Joseph and Christine would have kept Joseph's actions a secret. His actions were completely legitimate and legal within the laws of war. The Klingon commanders were legitimate military targets, and there's no indication whatsoever that Joseph committed any crimes or war crimes.
 
There's no evidence that Starfleet Command new, there's more evidence against them not knowing.
Christine Chapel was given a locator device to beam out M'Benga.

Obviously, both Christine Chapel & M'Benga were beamed out during the evac eventually.

Given the failure of the SoF mission and StarFleet recovering Chapel & M'Benga.

How is he going to explain all the blood, war wounds, damage, etc to those who recovered him?

By lying? Highly Doubful. At that time, M'Benga has no reason or motivation to lie about his actions.

He went in search of Dak'Rah, he never caught him; encountered his generals, took those guys out.

Eventually he went home, got patched up, moved on with his life.

There was no need to hide his actions, he's former SoF, trying to finish a mission that a former comrade died in.

Va'Al Trask & random young Red Shirt Ensign died doing a suicide run, he attempted to finished his mission.

Couldn't finish it because the "Dak'Rah" escaped.
 
Did they, though? I mean, think about it. M'Benga probably reported back in about his actions after his raid on Klingon HQ on J'Gal. He almost certainly told Christine. Even if they chose not to contradict Dak'Rah's lie and let most of the lower-ranking officers and public believe the propaganda, the upper echelons of Starfleet Command and the Federation government probably knew Dak'Rah was lying from the start.

My hypothesis is that they probably knew he was lying and chose not to accept Dak'Rah's defection because having a high-profile Klingon general defect, take on Federation citizenship, and become a Federation ambassador, probably served their political purpose. And the purpose isn't per se bad! Having a high-level Klingon general become a peacemaker really would be a good thing, in almost any other circumstance. They didn't do it because they were chasing power or money. But they still made a deal with the Devil by not holding Dak'Rah accountable for his atrocities.



Yeah, I can buy the idea that Dak'Rah was genuinely trying to make up for his actions with his diplomatic activities. That doesn't feel fake to me. He can be genuinely trying to make up for his actions and still be a coward who is unwilling to take responsibility for them. He can be genuinely trying to make up for his actions and also still be willing to murder to avoid taking responsibility. And he can be genuinely trying to make up for his actions yet also crave power and be willing to kill to protect it. These two sides of Dah'Rak can both be true.



Well, no one said, "You can't trust Klingons." What they said was, you can't trust Dak'Rah.

Having said that, I would be surprised if, at minimum, Ortegas didn't carry some anti-Klingon bigotry. She strikes me as the person most likely to apply an "In-Group Safe/Out-Group Threat" mentality to non-Federation species.



I think these are really extreme examples, and that in the overwhelming majority of cases a person convicted of a violent crime can probably be rehabilitated. I do not know if Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy, or Jones could have been rehabilitated. I strongly suspect Hitler could never have been rehabilitated.

I also do believe, quite firmly, that the state has no right to take human life except in life-or-death emergencies to protect others in danger. Which means that, no, I do not accept the legitimacy of the death penalty in any non-emergency circumstances. I do, indeed, believe that persons convicted of violent crimes who genuinely cannot be rehabilitated and who continue to pose a threat to public safety should be subjected to life incarceration in humane conditions.

Broadly-speaking, I think the Scandinavian system gets it right on these extreme cases: all sentences default to a maximum of 20 years incarceration, but if they determine that you continue to pose a danger after 20 years then that gets extended on a case-by-case basis.



There may be some people who deserve to be killed, but if we start talking about the idea of who deserves to be killed, the list might be a lot larger than a free and democratic society would actually allow. I've met a couple people in my lives I'm convinced are absolute sociopaths who will only ever ruin the lives of the people around them, and who would murder or rape if they could get away with it. Do they deserve to die too? I don't think so.

The issue is not whether the person deserves death. The issue is whether the state has the right to impose death in situations other than emergency responses to imminent danger. And it absolutely does not -- if for no other reason than that the state can never be 100% certain it is executing the right person. It is impossible to be 100% sure the person the state is executing actually deserved it.



Lifetime incarceration is already capable of securing the safety of innocent people against convicted murderers. And it has the advantage of being reversible if the person so convicted is later found to be not guilty.

In any event, TOS itself established that the Federation has abolished the death penalty for anything other than contact with Talos IV.



Completely agreed. My suspicion is that the Federation government knew of his guilt when he defected, but decided that the pros of being able to say a Klingon general had defected to their side and become a peacemaker outweighed the costs of him not being held accountable for his crimes. Which I think was absolutely the wrong call.



Because the right of a person to live can only be forfeit if you are an imminent danger to another, and the state has no right to take life except if you're an imminent danger to others.

Period.



Nope. If Dak'Rah didn't assault Joseph, then it was murder, period. Joseph's feelings do not constitute due process of law, and Joseph has no right to appoint himself judge, jury, and executioner.

And in the Federation justice system, there is no death penalty except for contact with Talos IV, and therefore Joseph's actions would, if he assaulted Dak'Rah, inherently constitute murder.

If Dak'Rah assaulted Joseph, then Joseph's killing him was self-defense. Which would have been justified, but not justice per se.

Either way, it was not justice. There can never be justice for the magnitude of Dak'Rah's crimes. It would, at most, have been vengeance. But these scales could never truly be balanced.



Agreed.



Well, depends on which version of Section 31 you're talking about.

The Central Intelligence Agency, whatever crimes and abuses it has committed, is still an agency that was created by, is funded by, is accountable to, takes orders from, and is subjected to oversight by, the democratically-elected legislature and executive. It is part of the democratic state.

When DS9 introduced them, they were explicitly established to be a rogue, extra-legal conspiracy within Starfleet that does not answer to or take orders from Starfleet Command or the Federation government. They claim to have been part of "the original Starfleet Charter," yet when the relevant section of the United Earth Starfleet Charter is read aloud in ENT, it refers only to giving people some leeway in an emergency rather than to establishing a permanent branch of Starfleet that's above the law. It is not part of the democratic state. In DS9 and ENT, Section 31 is to Starfleet as Hydra is to SHIELD in Captain America: The Winter Soldier.

The version of Section 31 that appeared in DIS S2 is treated as a legitimate branch of Starfleet that answers to Command and the Federation government. It is depicted as part of the democratic state; functionally, the role it plays is no different from the role Starfleet Intelligence used to play in older episodes. If we want to rationalize the discrepancy between the two versions of S31, my hypothesis is that it was always a conspiracy and they used the Control A.I. to forge a classified executive order from a prior president and thereby started siphoning off resources and funding from Starfleet.

I simply have to disagree with your assertion about people like Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy, child killers, etc. It's one thing to murder one person, but multiple people... a dozen, 2 dozen, more... I'm sorry, but their life is forfeit. Keeping them locked up for life, getting to enjoy reading, food, just being alive... they DO NOT deserve that. Instead of feeding that murderer 3 meals a day, those meals can go to someone like an orphan, a homeless person, or a veteran who actually served our country honorably. The drain on resources just keeping them locked up could be better spent elsewhere.

I absolutely do agree that evidence needs to be ironclad. (And in the examples I listed, it most certainly is.) I don't think a death penalty should be given out quickly.

I'm glad we do agree about one thing... people who are killing other people in the moment should be killed to stop more death, such as shooters at schools.


I'm just going to end with agreeing to disagree on those points because clearly you and Jackoverfull are not going to be convinced of my view, and I'm not going to be convinced about yours.



One other thought on the attack... Dak'Rah was right next to the table with the box that had the knife. M'Benga was on the other side of the room. It seems the most likely scenario was Rah took the knife and went after M'Benga, knowing he was the only person who could call Rah's stories into question. He tried to kill M'Benga so he could keep his comfortable Fedeeation ambassador life secure. And we saw earlier in the episode Rah could take him out. M'Benga was definitely self-defense. And he was justified.
 
To be clear, the Twitter user to whom I am reacting is concerned with the real-life impact of entertainment media on public perceptions of black men, not with the fictional actions of fictional governments within a fictional narrative.

Further how it can be loosely interpreted from the unclear presentation of what actually happened. The show and actual intents behind the story may have M'Benga doing it self defense or some kind of justification but looking at just the surface? Doesn't look great and seems to fit a trope
 
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I simply have to disagree with your assertion about people like Bundy, Dahmer, Gacy, child killers, etc. It's one thing to murder one person, but multiple people... a dozen, 2 dozen, more... I'm sorry, but their life is forfeit.

I cannot accept that the state has the right to take life except in life-or-death emergencies. That's too much power for the state to be trusted with. Human life is not the property of the state.

Instead of feeding that murderer 3 meals a day, those meals can go to someone like an orphan, a homeless person, or a veteran who actually served our country honorably.

I do think one should bear in mind that even in those states which have the death penalty, resources do not actually get diverted for those purposes. In fact, I'm pretty sure poverty rates tend to be higher in death penalty states.

I absolutely do agree that evidence needs to be ironclad.

The problem is, there's no such thing as 100% certainty.

I'm just going to end with agreeing to disagree on those points because clearly you and Jackoverfull are not going to be convinced of my view, and I'm not going to be convinced about yours.

Fair, and I appreciate that we had a thoughtful and respectful exchange.

One other thought on the attack... Dak'Rah was right next to the table with the box that had the knife. M'Benga was on the other side of the room. It seems the most likely scenario was Rah took the knife and went after M'Benga, knowing he was the only person who could call Rah's stories into question. He tried to kill M'Benga so he could keep his comfortable Fedeeation ambassador life secure. And we saw earlier in the episode Rah could take him out. M'Benga was definitely self-defense. And he was justified.

I'm leaning towards that interpretation. But on a pure "just-the-facts-ma'am" level, we just don't know. The episode is deliberately ambiguous.

Further how it can be loosely interpreted from the unclear presentation of what actually happened. The show and actual intents behind the story may have M'Benga doing it self defense or some kind of justification but looking at just the surface? Doesn't look great and seems to fit a tripe.

Yeah, I don't think it's an unfair criticism of the episode. To me, ultimately the fact that the narrative wants us to sympathize with Joseph and ask ourselves if we would really do any different means that the episode doesn't feel to me like it's trying to frame Joseph as violent and doesn't want the audience to feel alienated from him in any way. But... yeah, the sheer preponderance of black men committing violence in media means this is a fair criticism, even if one particular story might be justified in its presentation. I don't necessarily agree with the criticism, but I do think it is a fair criticism.
 
I cannot accept that the state has the right to take life except in life-or-death emergencies. That's too much power for the state to be trusted with. Human life is not the property of the state.



I do think one should bear in mind that even in those states which have the death penalty, resources do not actually get diverted for those purposes. In fact, I'm pretty sure poverty rates tend to be higher in death penalty states.



The problem is, there's no such thing as 100% certainty.



Fair, and I appreciate that we had a thoughtful and respectful exchange.



I'm leaning towards that interpretation. But on a pure "just-the-facts-ma'am" level, we just don't know. The episode is deliberately ambiguous.



Yeah, I don't think it's an unfair criticism of the episode. To me, ultimately the fact that the narrative wants us to sympathize with Joseph and ask ourselves if we would really do any different means that the episode doesn't feel to me like it's trying to frame Joseph as violent and doesn't want the audience to feel alienated from him in any way. But... yeah, the sheer preponderance of black men committing violence in media means this is a fair criticism, even if one particular story might be justified in its presentation. I don't necessarily agree with the criticism, but I do think it is a fair criticism.

Agreed. What it's saying is fair and probably valid... But it's not what the episode was doing or even saying. I still haven't re-watched it yet but my initial reading of the scene is that Rah either did it to himself and M'Benga tried to stop him or M'Benga did it self-defense, Rah tried to attack M'Benga.

I need to re-watch it, when I first watched it I was kind of tired so I may have missed something.
 
Ensconced in my bubble, I totally missed an interpretation of the episode.
But I just saw M'Benga trending on Twitter.
Tweet link: https://twitter.com/Lyrical_Girafe/status/1685326376583516160

I had failed to consider the fact who the war criminal in the crew is. Who suddenly may have become a murderer because of his feelings? The black man.

Ouch.
How is M'Benga a war criminal? He killed three enemy soldiers during a time of war. Wouldn't that make every soldier who has killed in combat a war criminal?
 
After recovering M'Benga, they're not going to get a "After Action Report"?

That seems highly unlikely for StarFleet, a organization that is as bureaucratic & thorough on documenting things.

Especially since M'Benga went on a lone SoF operation.
Christine Chapel was probably the one who beamed him back; and once he told her, I think they would both decide its not something they'd want to report. (And especially if they heard later that he surrendered and told the story he did to his captors.)

Its pretty clear NO ONE but Joseph and possibly Christine knew Joseph KEPT the Klingon Dagger that he used to kill the 3 Klingon soldiers.
 
Christine Chapel was probably the one who beamed him back; and once he told her, I think they would both decide its not something they'd want to report.

But... why? Nothing Joseph did was illegal or a violation of orders. Why would he hide it?

(And especially if they heard later that he surrendered and told the story he did to his captors.)

Dah'Rak would not plausibly have had the time to already surrender to Starfleet and tell such a story before Joseph had beamed back and reported in.
 
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