Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x03 - "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"

[DaveyNY]

They didn't find out they were brother and sister until the third movie.


She only remembered feelings. Seeing as how Leia is also force sensitive it makes sense.


His agenda was still to turn Luke to the dark side.



You're trying to compare changes in a characters motivation between films to an out right retcon of established canon. It's not on the same league. If a Star Wars movie comes out that retcons things like the time of the Clone Wars or the Battle at Yarvin, let me know.

Funny how you have completely ignored my examples of very obvious retcons in Star Wars.

 

[NCC-73515]

You're missing the point. If La'an's descent hinges on Khan living in the 1990s instead of the 2020s, then she'd have no home to go back to as there's no timeline where she'd actually exist! The time gizmo would just turn green to dump her back to the nearest "close enough" timeline, where no one would recognize her.

If she had killed Khan, the thing would be red forever and she'd be trapped. Her future was restored when she stopped the assassination, and that's why it turned green and worked again.

 

[Yistaan]

If she had killed Khan, the thing would be red forever and she'd be trapped. Her future was restored when she stopped the assassination, and that's why it turned green and worked again.

A future close enough to her own was restored that a Temporal Investigations exists to take her to a timeline that's apparently identical to her own. The problem is if she was descended from 1990s Khan, she likely wouldn't exist in this timeline "identical" to her own. If I went back in time and delayed my great-grandfather's birth by 30 years, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't exist in the new timeline even if everything else is the same (and everything else would be the same because my family are nobodies who have done nothing of note).

 

[Sci]

Well then keep an eye out for future episodes. If what you say is true, Pelia won't remember anything that happened in this week's episode. But if it's shown in future episodes she does remember what happened, then 2022 Khan's timeline is still valid and your theory goes out the airlock.

Maybe. Or maybe Lanthanites, like El-Aurians (Guinan in "Yesterday's Enterprise"), have an awareness of time-travel effects that encompasses remembering things from multiple timelines.

 

[DaveyNY]

A future close enough to her own was restored that a Temporal Investigations exists to take her to a timeline that's apparently identical to her own. The problem is if she was descended from 1990s Khan, she likely wouldn't exist in this timeline "identical" to her own. If I went back in time and delayed my great-grandfather's birth by 30 years, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't exist in the new timeline even if everything else is the same (and everything else would be the same because my family are nobodies who have done nothing of note).

That's probably true with everything but the Star Trek Universe.

 

[NCC-73515]

Right, it should've ended with Pike now saying "Who are you?" (to be continued...)

The real question is: When Ian tries to sing at noon - can noon-Ian sing?

 

[Ometiklan]

I wonder if Pelia still remembers meeting La'an in 2022? She might be the one person La'an can confide in about the trauma she's just been through without damaging the timeline.

I thought they might go that route. But then I remembered what Pelia said about being terrible at remembering faces. I think that was inserted to cover why Pelia wouldn't recognize La'an in the future. I think it was more interesting to leave La'an a little isolated (but maybe a little less than when she started the episode). Though they could always address this a little in the future with Pelia if they wanted.

 

[Yistaan]

Maybe. Or maybe Lanthanites, like El-Aurians (Guinan in "Yesterday's Enterprise"), have an awareness of time-travel effects that encompasses remembering things from multiple timelines.

Picard: Guinan, we need to talk about Khan. When did he really rule?

(Guinan drops dead from the sheer amount of contradicting timelines involving the Eugenics Wars and the strain of focusing her attention on them)

 

[DaveyNY]

I think that Pelia's watch is the clue that the Khan saga has been altered.

If she ever sees it, she's going to remember that time she gave it to La'an.

 

[Yistaan]

Right, it should've ended with Pike now saying "Who are you?" (to be continued...)

Now we're talking! And La'an pours her heart out to SNW Kirk about the Gorn and SNW Kirk swears to hunt down all Gorn to avenge La'an's pain.

And TOS Kirk is like, "I'm fighting a creature apparently called a Gorn".

 

[Charles Phipps]

A future close enough to her own was restored that a Temporal Investigations exists to take her to a timeline that's apparently identical to her own. The problem is if she was descended from 1990s Khan, she likely wouldn't exist in this timeline "identical" to her own. If I went back in time and delayed my great-grandfather's birth by 30 years, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't exist in the new timeline even if everything else is the same (and everything else would be the same because my family are nobodies who have done nothing of note).

I actually maintain that the first major deviations of canon in Star Trek were ENTERPRISE. The NX-01 didn't exist on the TOS movie wall so it never launched. In the original timeline, the Suliban never attacked Earth with the Klingon bounty hunter so Archer's NX-01 never launched.

Therefore, all of ENT and the Xindi War are alterations to canon that resulted in the DISCO and SNW timelines.

 

[Sci]

I just think we probably need to let go of the idea that we can reason out a definitive narrative of a single set of consistent facts on the issue of when Khan reigned. I doubt there's going to be one -- I think we canonical evidence will remain inconclusive and several different interpretations of what happened will remain consistent with the canon.

I thought they might go that route. But then I remembered what Pelia said about being terrible at remembering faces. I think that was inserted to cover why Pelia wouldn't recognize La'an in the future. I think it was more interesting to leave La'an a little isolated (but maybe a little less than when she started the episode). Though they could always address this a little in the future with Pelia if they wanted.

Fair. Though really, I don't think you really need to "explain" why a six-thousand-year-old woman didn't remember a person she met for a couple of hours two hundred forty years earlier. I'm 37 and I've failed to remember the faces of people I've met on multiple occasions.

 

[TerryTrek]

Star Trek (2009) (and later Discovery) established that alterations in the timeline do not necessarily mean the original ceases to exist, since Prime Spock and the Prime Universe still co-exist even though the Kelvin Universe branches off with Nero's appearance in the past and the USS Kelvin's destruction. And the changes are a matter of perspective for the people caught in the weirdness.

Whether time travel causes a branch or alteration of the original timeline is all over the place in Star Trek. For this episode, my guess is that La'an could only use the time-travel device to return to her timeline since the device comes from a Department of Temporal Investigations that's native to the future of her timeline.

Within the context of Star Trek, from 1966 to 2005, they didn't do the branching timeline thing. They had the timeline altered by changes made to the past (City on the Edge, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact, Past Tense, Future's End, etc).

JJ's Reboot brought on the new universe branching concept, mainly as a conceit to have a reboot while not alienating the existing fans.

Although, if you follow this line of thought, does first contact with the Vulcans get pushed beyond 2063 too?

Supposedly a quote from Akiva Goldsman

It's what I mentioned earlier. They will probably push off WW3 as well, it would go against the messaging of the Nu Trek creatives to have a decent to barbarism, bloodshed, anti-wokeness, and slaughter so close to the modern day and the progressive world that they want to see.

They're having trouble presenting Star Trek as an alternate timeline to our real world.

 

[ichab]

Yes. And what Greg is saying is that it is highly improbable that Lucas would have chosen to depict Luke and Leia as kissing romantically if he had always intended for them to be brother and sister; therefore, Greg argues, it is highly probable that the idea that Luke and Leia are siblings was a retcon rather than having been Lucas's plan all along.



No, she explicitly describes remembering her mother -- it was more than feelings.




They both represent changes in creative direction made between films that indicate the films weren't made with a rigid plan in advance. The comparison is valid on that level.

The comparisons are not valid. You're trying to compare ideas changed during development to changes made after they were already put on screen. The two are not the same. It's not canon until it hits celluloid. Lucas deciding to make Luke and Leia siblings in the third movie is nothing like changing the Eugenics wars and Khans age being changed.If Star Wars comes out with a later movie that changes Luke's age or moves his battles with Vader forward 40 years, then your point will be valid.

 

[DaveyNY]

JJ's Reboot brought on the new universe branching concept, mainly as a conceit to have a reboot while not alienating the existing fans.

Are you forgetting Worf and all the different universes he traveled to.
All those are existing "timelines".

 

[Yistaan]

The comparisons are not valid. You're trying to compare ideas changed during development to changes made after they were already put on screen. The two are not the same. It's not canon until it hits celluloid. Lucas deciding to make Luke and Leia siblings in the third movie is nothing like changing the Eugenics wars and Khans age being changed.If Star Wars comes out with a later movie that changes Luke's age or moves his battles with Vader forward 40 years, then your point will be valid.

Terminator is what you're looking for. Does anyone even know when Judgment Day is anymore?

 

[Sci]

They will probably push off WW3 as well, it would go against the messaging of the Nu Trek creatives to have a decent to barbarism, bloodshed, anti-wokeness, and slaughter so close to the modern day and the progressive world that they want to see.

I can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say here. Why would someone who believes in progressive politics and wants to see a progressive future think that World War III and a descent into barbarism goes against the progressive message they're sending? It's entirely consistent with progressivism to depict humanity as finally embracing progressive politics and rejecting regressive politics after experiencing a horrific war caused by regressive politics.

 

[DaveyNY]

The comparisons are not valid. You're trying to compare ideas changed during development to changes made after they were already put on screen. The two are not the same. It's not canon until it hits celluloid. Lucas deciding to make Luke and Leia siblings in the third movie is nothing like changing the Eugenics wars and Khans age being changed.If Star Wars comes out with a later movie that changes Luke's age or moves his battles with Vader forward 40 years, then your point will be valid.

Again, you are ignoring my examples of Lucas changing details of the original movies years later.
They are retcons.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Are you forgetting Worf and all the different universes he traveled to.
All those are existing "timelines".

Yes, but they're parallel universes not branching timelines.

And, again, there's no reason to believe that the Red Matter wormhole brought them into the past versus a parallel past.

 

[ichab]

Terminator is what you're looking for. Does anyone even know when Judgment Day is anymore?

Who knows? I stopped caring after T2.