Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x03 - "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"

[Yistaan]

Its Red when Sarah kills Khan, or nukes Toronto.

Its green in 2022 when 13 year old Khan lives, and the town is free of mushroom clouds.

Travelling back to 1992 to fight young Sarah and bring back the TOS timeline was never on the table.

I never said anything about bringing back the TOS timeline. I said what would have happened was that La'an would end up on an Enterprise where she never existed and have to start fresh (and that this didn't happen was only because it would confuse viewers).

Never mind, it's clear after several posts you don't understand what I'm saying.

 

[ichab]

Can you name me one single franchise that has not been changed in the history of ongoing ones?

Star Wars.

 

[Noname Given]

Christina Chong is great. The episode was pretty good. Meandered a bit in the middle (the whole trip to see Pelia felt like it was there just because it's the kind of thing that happens in Star Trek episodes) but Chong made it work with her acting at the end. Paul Wesley was okay. Doesn't feel like Kirk but worked well enough in the episode.

I don't care about the changes to Khan lore.

I thought the trip to see Pelia made sense. At that point they both realized they needed an engineer. From La'an's perspective, since Pelia was an engineer teaching at the Academy in the 23rd century; she figured it was a profession that Pelia must have been engaged in for a long time, and 250 years earlier, she should still be an engineer of some type.

Of course we find out that's not the case, however, based on her conversation with La'an, it's intimated that the discussion between the two is what started Pelia's interest in engineering is a possible profession.

 

[El Maestro]

Who needs fictional temporal wars when we can fight about timelines here?!?

Solid and entertaining episode. Cast was excellent. SNW is a very good show and I hope they make an absolute ton of it.

 

[DaveyNY]

Star Wars.

Greedo would like to have a word with you.

Also, the Ewok's want their Nub-Nub ditty back.

I'd avoid Darth Maul's first death scene as well, if I were you.

I'm pretty sure there are others, but the point has been made.

That to me is silly.

Then I guess you'll just have to learn to live with it just like the rest of us, or move on to something that doesn't upset your sensibilities.

 

[El Maestro]

It's not about adjusting with the times. Star Trek is pure fiction, not real life. Just because we didn't experience a Eugenics War in reality doesn't mean that a fictional T.V show should keep changing its established universe. When we get to the new established date and the third world war still doesn't happen, should Trek move it forward again "to keep with the times"? That to me is silly.

I don’t know, I like the idea that Trek is an imaginary history of OUR future. So if it means that some details of the imaginary historical record need to change to keep that true I’m fine with it. 1992 was 30 years ago so the longer we get from it the stranger and more “not our imaginary future” it becomes. But, because it’s all imaginary it’s whatever, right? Fun to dream though.

 

[Sci]

why can star trek fans not just enjoy a thing for what it is instead of getting a mental wedgie about timelines and minutiae all the fucking time?

Because some people don't experience Star Trek as a work of art; they experience it as a collection of trivia points to be recorded onto Memory Alpha articles.

I thought the trip to see Pelia made sense. At that point they both realized they needed an engineer. From La'an's perspective, since Pelia was an engineer teaching at the Academy in the 23rd century; she figured it was a profession that Pelia must have been engaged in for a long time, and 250 years earlier, she should still be an engineer of some type.

Of course we find out that's not the case, however, based on her conversation with La'an, it's intimated that the discussion between the two is what started Pelia's interest in engineering is a possible profession.

I wonder if Pelia still remembers meeting La'an in 2022? She might be the one person La'an can confide in about the trauma she's just been through without damaging the timeline.

 

[El Maestro]

I wonder if Pelia still remembers meeting La'an in 2022? She might be the one person La'an can confide in about the trauma she's just been through without damaging the timeline.

I honestly thought that would be the stinger at the end but they went with the kind of downer ending. Not upset about it, I think either choice could have worked!

 

[Sci]

I honestly thought that would be the stinger at the end but they went with the kind of downer ending. Not upset about it, I think either choice could have worked!

Yeah, I think it needed to end on the down note. This is fundamentally a story about loss and trauma and grief, not about recovering from loss and trauma and grief.

That ending shot though? The close-up on the watch. Representing the brief time she and Jim shared, the ghost of what once was, the echo of what could have been. Their stolen time together. "Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow." Damn.

 

[Tuskin38]

Star Wars.

Star Wars isn't set in our Galaxy.

 

[El Maestro]

Yeah, I think it needed to end on the down note. This is fundamentally a story about loss and trauma and grief, not about recovering from loss and trauma and grief.

That ending shot though? The close-up on the watch. Representing the brief time she and Jim shared, the ghost of what once was, the echo of what could have been. Their stolen time together. "Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow." Damn.

Yep. It was a great episode. It’s so nice to have single-episode stories. No way something like this happens if we have a season long arc to service.

 

[DaveyNY]

Pelia is the type who will eventually come looking for her antique watch though.

 

[El Maestro]

Star Wars isn't set in our Galaxy.

I mean, it says it right at the beginning!!

 

[Charles Phipps]

Star Wars.

They retconned massive amounts of the setting when it was bought by Disney.

 

[El Maestro]

And people are OK with this? They've basically said that TOS never happened and thus it doesn't count anymore. I'd have thought there'd be a tad more vitriol.

They most assuredly did not say this.

 

[Greg Cox]

Star Wars.

A couple of romantic kisses in the first two movies suggest that Luke and Leia being siblings was a pretty serious retcon in the third movie. And speaking of ROTJ, there's also Leia wistfully remembering her tragically sad mother -- who died in childbirth right after Leia was born?

Vader's character also changes between EMPIRE and JEDI. In Empire, he wants to betray the Emperor (with Luke's help) and rule the galaxy as father and son. In Jedi, he seems to be the Emperor's dutiful servant with no agenda of his own.

I remember being disappointed, way back in '83, by the way JEDI dropped Vader's own secret ambitions to make him the obedient flunky he was only pretending to be in EMPIRE.

 

[TerryTrek]

Alternately, the Prime Timeline encompasses ENT, DIS S1-2, SNW, TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, LD, PRO, and PIC -- and it's just been slightly re-written.

Basically the writers made the time-travel mechanism vague enough that it can mean whatever you want it to me when you watch it. If you want it to be the same timeline as TOS et al, then for all we know La'an left a closed loop alternate timeline and reverted back to her own where Khan always reigned from 1992 to 1996. If you want it to be the same timeline as TOS et al but with it slightly re-written, then La'an has returned to the same timeline as TOS but from now on Khan will have reigned some time between the 2030s and 2050s. If you want it to be a completely different timeline from TOS et al, then you now have an episode that could be interpreted to support that hypothesis.

Everyone now gets to have their continuity cake and eat it too.

I'm good with that for now.

However, I think they've left the door open for a future showrunner to potentially explain the timeline divergence in greater detail.

Memory Alpha has updated it with some interesting information on this Ret-Khan.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

OG Trek Khan was born in 1959.

Nu-Trek Khan was born around the mid 2010s.

That means the Eugenics Wars in the SNW timeline will probably be around the 2040s or 50s, instead of the 1990s.

 

[fireproof78]

A couple of romantic kisses in the first two movies suggest that Luke and Leia being siblings was a pretty serious retcon in the third movie. And speaking of ROTJ, there's also Leia wistfully remembering her tragically sad mother -- who died in childbirth right after Leia was born?

Vader's character also changes between EMPIRE and JEDI. In Empire, he wants to betray the Emperor (with Luke's help) and rule the galaxy as father and son. In Jedi, he seems to be the Emperor's dutiful servant with no agenda of his own.

I remember being disappointed, way back in '83, by the way JEDI dropped Vader's own secret ambitions to make him the obedient flunky he was only pretending to be in EMPIRE.

Or Anakin wanting Luke to have a lightsaber.

 

[1001001]

That was pretty good. Once again it feels like three other Star Trek shows sewn together, but done so well.

+1 for the La’An/Kirk thing.

8

 

[Amaris]

A couple of romantic kisses in the first two movies suggest that Luke and Leia being siblings was a pretty serious retcon in the third movie. And speaking of ROTJ, there's also Leia wistfully remembering her tragically sad mother -- who died in childbirth right after Leia was born?

Vader's character also changes between EMPIRE and JEDI. In Empire, he wants to betray the Emperor (with Luke's help) and rule the galaxy as father and son. In Jedi, he seems to be the Emperor's dutiful servant with no agenda of his own.

I remember being disappointed, way back in '83, by the way JEDI dropped Vader's own secret ambitions to make him the obedient flunky he was only pretending to be in EMPIRE.

That's why Empire was the apex of classic Star Wars storytelling for me. It had so much going for it, and quite a bit was squandered in the third film, IMO.