How much more detail do we need than the Romulans fukin' around with Earth's history?
Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x03 - "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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Yes. Romulan stated changes have been made to the timeline due to the temporal wars and other individuals trying to change time, but certain events happen anyway but may just be delayed. She specifically says Khan's rise to power was supposed to be in the 90s but happened later due to temporal interference. In TOS and TWOK, Khan's rise to power was in the 90s. IN SNW it appears to be in the 2040s-2050s? So not sure if you would call it an alternate timeline or say that the prime timeline has been changed, but SNW has a different past than TOS did - even major events like when wars took place.
Except the show explicitly stated it was a different timeline. Pike's comments in the SNW pilot - sure revised continuity - but here you have a character who stated that events as stated in TOS did not occur that way in SNW due to timeline interference (i.e. the timeline has changed)
I dunno, I think Sera's lines were vague enough that's just as likely that the version of the 2020s La'an visited was a "closed loop" alternate timeline, and the "delay" Sera referred to may not have still happened in the original timeline to which La'an returned at the end. The canonical evidence is so ambiguous that it can effectively mean whatever you want it to mean.
This! Just because the Eugenics wars happened in the 90s in Trek and didn't happen in our 1990s doesn't mean they need to update the story or change them to the 2040s..just leave them in the 90s in Trek history. So weird to change that.
Star Trek (2009) (and later Discovery) established that alterations in the timeline do not necessarily mean the original ceases to exist, since Prime Spock and the Prime Universe still co-exist even though the Kelvin Universe branches off with Nero's appearance in the past and the USS Kelvin's destruction. And the changes are a matter of perspective for the people caught in the weirdness.
Whether time travel causes a branch or alteration of the original timeline is all over the place in Star Trek. For this episode, my guess is that La'an could only use the time-travel device to return to her timeline since the device comes from a Department of Temporal Investigations that's native to the future of her timeline.
Although, if you follow this line of thought, does first contact with the Vulcans get pushed beyond 2063 too?
God I am so tired of people's inability to critique writing they don't like -- or even bad writing -- without personally insulting the writers.
Well that could be the case for the SNW timeline La'an was already living in, but Khan himself said he ruled in the 1990s - which SNW now says didn't happen because of temporal interference. So the TOS timeline and the SNW are clearly different. The reason La'ans timeline returned to normal was because Khan of the 2020s-2030s as a child survived. Not sure we saw any evidence of that timeline being closed off.
Correct. If Temporal Investigations always had some way to restore 1990s Khan, then it really wouldn't matter if an alt-2022 Khan lived or died (not unlike how alt-Kirk's death ultimately was of no importance). Yet we're told 2022 Khan's survival was the key.
Again, the character who claims that Khan's reign has been delayed from the 1990s to the 21st Century is Sera, whom we only ever see in this version of what appears to be 2022 Toronto. For all we know, the 2022 Toronto which La'an visited might have been a "closed loop" alternate timeline and the delay may not have occurred in the Prime Timeline to which La'an returns. At no point does La'an or another character in the scenes set in the 2200s refer to Khan as having reigned in the 21st Century rather than the 1990s.
Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. The evidence is vague and inconclusive.
When the show is about humanity's future they'll update it.
They didn't find out they were brother and sister until the third movie.
She only remembered feelings. Seeing as how Leia is also force sensitive it makes sense.And speaking of ROTJ, there's also Leia wistfully remembering her tragically sad mother -- who died in childbirth right after Leia was born?
His agenda was still to turn Luke to the dark side.
You're trying to compare changes in a characters motivation between films to an out right retcon of established canon. It's not on the same league. If a Star Wars movie comes out that retcons things like the time of the Clone Wars or the Battle at Yarvin, let me know.
Even if Sera is an unreliable narrator, the fact is that 2022 Khan's survival is also treated as important by Temporal Investigations, not just Sera. If Temporal Investigations could put La'an back into a 1990s Khan timeline at the end of the day, it's hard to see why the survival of some 2022 Khan would be necessary to do that.
Yes. And what Greg is saying is that it is highly improbable that Lucas would have chosen to depict Luke and Leia as kissing romantically if he had always intended for them to be brother and sister; therefore, Greg argues, it is highly probable that the idea that Luke and Leia are siblings was a retcon rather than having been Lucas's plan all along.
No, she explicitly describes remembering her mother -- it was more than feelings.
They both represent changes in creative direction made between films that indicate the films weren't made with a rigid plan in advance. The comparison is valid on that level.
Lucas starting retconning his own work before the prequel trilogy was even made. Dialog changes, character designs, changing what actually happens in scenes...
Don't be obtuse. Star Wars has clearly been through some (much publicised and in cases much maligned) changes through its history.
The fact you're able to cobble together a fix for the changes doesn't mean the changes didn't happen.
I enjoyed this one a lot. Paul was much more Kirk-y here. And the one good thing the new management at P+ did was to bring the episode previews back before the end credits.
For all we know, it might not have mattered at all if 2022-Khan survived -- Alt-Kirk explicitly identifies the destruction of Toronto by the Romulans in 2022 as having been the start of the war that destroyed Earth, after all. If that was the case, then preventing the destruction of Toronto could have been the thing that allowed both a Khan-reigns-in-the-2030s timeline and a Khan-reigns-in-the-1990s timeline to survive, or it could have allowed both timelines to merge back into one-another. Or it could have restored the Khan-reigns-in-the-1990s timeline and caused the Khan-reigns-in-the-2030s timeline to collapse back in on itself. We just don't know.
I made the same statement earlier. To me it's ridiculous to change canon on a T V show just because a fictional World War didn't happen in the real world. If aliens never visit us, will they retcon first contact too? Will they push it forward if we haven't achieved warp flight? Come on. That's a case of writers taking the real world allegory thing a little too deep.
There's a very easy explanation for that which would bring 2009 in line with the rest of the way Time Travel is treated in Trek. Which is the Red Matter wormhole deposited Spock and Nero in an alternate timline/reality rather than creating a branch one.
Like the Cyberman episode of NuWho.
The answer is that the writers felt it was a good story, first and foremost. Not to correct the timeline.
Well then keep an eye out for future episodes. If what you say is true, Pelia won't remember anything that happened in this week's episode. But if it's shown in future episodes she does remember what happened, then 2022 Khan's timeline is still valid and your theory goes out the airlock.
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