Spoilers Star Trek: Strange New Worlds 2x03 - "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow"

[fireproof78]

You're trying to compare changes in a characters motivation between films to an out right retcon of established canon. It's not on the same league. If a Star Wars movie comes out that retcons things like the time of the Clone Wars or the Battle at Yarvin, let me know.

How about Obi-Wan telling Luke that his father wanted him to have his lightsaber and then Obi-wan picking it up as an afterthought of leaving his "brother" to burn?

No, not a retcon? Just Lucas' choices. Oh, well, they're still bad.

Also, what dates? Star Wars doesn't use dates. The Battle of Yavin is the date point of the universe.

 

[Set Harth]

No. The objections were the Enterprise was wrong, the technology too advance for that era of "TOS" that Pike was not "about the same age as Kirk" but closer to a father figure. That the ships are way to big for the time period, etc.

Were the objections about 2233 or 2258? If the latter, you can pretty much blame everything on the timeline alteration, with the exception of Pike's age.

 

[Tallguy]

Has anyone mentioned Pelia and her like and a connection with Flint from Requiem for Methuselah?

 

[fireproof78]

Were the objections about 2233 or 2258? If the latter, you can pretty much blame everything on the timeline alteration, with the exception of Pike's age.

"The objections about the Enterprise" should indicate that I am talking about 2258.

Has anyone mentioned Pelia and her like and a connection with Flint from Requiem for Methuselah?

Several times. The odds are not good though since Flint is stated as to be dying at the end of the episode, that his immortality faded after leaving Earth.

 

[JoseNoodles]

8/10
It started off real slow, but the final act makes up for it. You really feel for La'an here. I like time travel episodes in Star Trek that produce these kind of impossible tragedies. It underscores why time travel, even if it is possible, is a bad idea.

So we see young Khan. I still have no sympathy for him.

Wesley Kirk reminded me of Pine Kirk this time around. Will we ever get to see him be Prime-verse Kirk for more than a few minutes?

What time period did the Romulan come from? She mentioned the Federation always meddling, but that could describe any era (post ENT-era, TOS-era, TNG-era). I'd like to think this whole thing was a response to Romulus being destroyed, and the Federation offering support and then taking it back. Maybe she was a follower of Nero, she seemed a bit unhinged like him. As far as the line about 1992, I get the sense that she used the same incorrect source of information that Spock did in Space Seed, and that Khan's reign and subsequent Eugenics Wars never took place in the 90s. I just see it as a tongue-in-cheek reference, not proof positive of an alternate prime timeline.

Has anyone mentioned Pelia and her like and a connection with Flint from Requiem for Methuselah?

I have.

 

[Yistaan]

In Star Trek II, yes. In Space Seed, he's an antagonist.

Killing is not Step 1 for the good guys either, but they'll certainly resort to it as Step 2. Just look at how fast 2009's Kirk goes from galactic diplomat to straight-up executioner when Nero rejects his help. At least he "tried(?)" compared to Spock wanting to murder Nero as Step 1.

And there's a reason why those Kelvin movies are widely criticized as absurd by many Trek fans.

No, most of the time killing isn't Step 2 for the good guys either. That's why they have a stun setting. Killing is usually treated as a last resort by the protagonists on Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

Wesley Kirk reminded me of Pine Kirk this time around. Will we ever get to see him be Prime-verse Kirk for more than a few minutes?

No.

And there's a reason why those Kelvin movies are widely criticized as absurd by many Trek fans.

And they really shouldn't. It's a new take with a new and inexperienced crew. Kirk kills Kruge and that's fine. Pine Kirk kills Nero and that's absurd...

 

[Jedi Marso]

Making a period episode (with associated costumes and sets) would have been a lot more expensive. Perhaps the budget or shooting schedule just couldn't accommodate that.

There is a business opportunity here for someone good with Unreal Engine. Generate a bunch of cities and towns in different countries in different decades (or even centuries) to use with a backdrop aka what they are doing with The Mandalorian. Start an fx company, and productions like Trek can come along and say: "We need to see Paris in the 1950's for this time travel episode we are shooting." Access the 'library' and voila! Paris in the 1950's, complete with the buildings, cars, fashions, etc.

 

[Noname Given]

The people behind SNW have given interviews where they’ve indicated they’re not concerned about canon when it comes to the Gorn and they’ve spelled out their intentions with the Gorn, which are the exact opposite of what TOS was going for story wise when they used them.

Akiva Goldsman gave an interview just a few weeks ago where he was asked about the Gorn in Strange New Worlds and the problems of lining up what they've done in Strange New Worlds with TOS's "Arena," and he gives an answer that indicates his interpretation is the exact opposite of what Gene Coon intended with "Arena."

TREKMOVIE: So the question is: why the Gorn who have some tricky canon issues instead of using the opportunity to create your own whole new villain species?​

AKIVA GOLDSMAN: Because for me, storytelling beats canon. And that may not be popular, but it’s the truth. So when they can go hand-in-hand, great. But when I was writing the pilot, I was looking for something that was just monstrous, that was Cthulhu-like. Something that was unthinking. Our shows are empathy generators and I wanted to have an element which was in relief of that. I wanted something that you couldn’t identify with, something that was utterly alien, something that was all appetite and instinct in ways that we couldn’t quite understand. And I also wanted to signal place and time in a way that personally I found interesting. So you should definitely blame me for this one.​

Goldsman totally misses the point of what the Gorn are in TOS, since “Arena” is built around Kirk being able to find empathy for a giant lizard that just murdered a bunch of colonists.

Part of the twist of “Arena” is realizing the whole mess is a misunderstanding. The Gorn aren’t “unthinking.” They are not Cthulhu, or monsters, or savages, or animals or facehuggers on LV-426. They’re people making bad choices in a misunderstanding over defending their home. Gene Coon also wrote “The Devil in the Dark,” and “Arena” shares a similar theme. Instead of not being able to identify with the Gorn, the entire episode hinges around a future where humanity is able to find empathy for something alien in order to recognize that maybe the entire situation is a big mistake.

You guys call it a blank slate, but the showrunner is telling you the entire approach to the Gorn as characters is different than what they were intended to be in TOS. And beyond that, he doesn’t have an answer for why it had to be the Gorn and couldn’t have applied this to a new alien species created for Strange New Worlds.

No...sorry...the actions of The Gorn in the original TOS S1 Arena could hardly be construed as a "misunderstanding"...
^^^
And if that what the TOS script author was going for, he failed BIG TIME.

The episode opens with Kirk and Co. in the Transporter Room ACTUALLY SPEAKING (in real time) with someone they believe in a Star Fleet Commodore - Commodore Travers. They are actually having a belieavable and casual discussion with him.

Then they beam down and find the Colony completely wiped out.

They find a survivor who tell them exactly what happened: The Gorn came in using the normal approach route and at 'Space Normal Speed' Then without warning immediately attacked.

The Outpost called up, and tried to surrender, telling the Gorn they had women and children (and given everything in the episode to this point it's crystal clear the Gorn UNDERSTOOD the message from the base: "We surrender and have women and children." The Gorn response? Per the survivor: "They poured it on..."

Then Kirk relates the fact that the Enterprise received two messages from Cestus III - the first one asking them to divert there, and the second asking that Kirk and a tactical team beam down.

The Survivor relates that the Gorn attacked the Base a full day befor the 1701 got there and, "No messages came from us."

So, no, there was no "misunderstanding" here. The Gorn had IN DEPTH knowledge of the Federation and Star Fleet, (to the point they could effectively fake and carry on a conversation of/as a KNOWN Star Fleet Commodore (Travers), ignored an offer of surrender, and then laid a detailed trap to lure a mainline Star Fleet Heavy Cruiser into a situation where the combat capabilities of it, and its crew could be engaged and evaluated/tested.

This was no simple "misunderstanding". What the Gorn did in TOS S1 Arena was cold and calculated to the extreme.

The military information the Gorn may have gotten from attacking the base was TOO DETAILED to be the result of a days worth of study - and when you look at how utterly destroyed the Base itself was; all the info on the Federation and Star Fleet the Gorn had, must have been obtained PRIOR to there attack. There were no usable records to retrieve from the rubble that was the Cestus III outpost after the Gorn attack.

If anything, the Gorn story line of La'an in SNW EXPLAINS just how the Gorn had SO MUCH detailed information on the Federation and Star Fleet prior to the attack they committed, and well planned and executed trap they laid for the 1701 in TOS S1 Arena, years after the events seen in SNW so far

 

[fireproof78]

There is a business opportunity here for someone good with Unreal Engine. Generate a bunch of cities and towns in different countries in different decades (or even centuries) to use with a backdrop aka what they are doing with The Mandalorian. Start an fx company, and productions like Trek can come along and say: "We need to see Paris in the 1950's for this time travel episode we are shooting." Access the 'library' and voila! Paris in the 1950's, complete with the buildings, cars, fashions, etc.

They are providing costumes as well?

 

[Yistaan]

There is a business opportunity here for someone good with Unreal Engine. Generate a bunch of cities and towns in different countries in different decades (or even centuries) to use with a backdrop aka what they are doing with The Mandalorian. Start an fx company, and productions like Trek can come along and say: "We need to see Paris in the 1950's for this time travel episode we are shooting." Access the 'library' and voila! Paris in the 1950's, complete with the buildings, cars, fashions, etc.

Everything indicates Paramount is bleeding money. We just lost Prodigy. Star Trek Picard became a game of "how will they use the Ten Forward bar set this week?" Episodes 2 and 3 of SNW S2 were bottle shows in one set or filmed in the real world.

 

[Jedi Marso]

They are providing costumes as well?

I imagine they could, or if not in the background itself, they could be layered in with additional CGI work. I'm not a guru on Unreal, but I've seen some clips about the latest versions and it is a phenomenal graphics tool.

Everything indicates Paramount is bleeding money. We just lost Prodigy. Star Trek Picard became a game of "how will they use the Ten Forward bar set this week?" Episodes 2 and 3 of SNW S2 were bottle shows in one set or filmed in the real world.

That's a shame, because what that really tells us is that SNW won't be around for much longer.

 

[JoseNoodles]

No.

I'm sorry, your snark didn't come through clearly. Could you be a little more vague?

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sorry, your snark didn't come through clearly. Could you be a little more vague?

Eh...*wiggles hand back and forth*

I imagine they could, or if not in the background itself, they could be layered in with additional CGI work. I'm not a guru on Unreal, but I've seen some clips about the latest versions and it is a phenomenal graphics tool.

I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about costumes for actors that usually have to be customized in some way. That would really be the challenge in terms of a period story, especially if limited to one episode.

 

[JoseNoodles]

Eh...*wiggles hand back and forth*

C'mon, you can do better.

 

[fireproof78]

C'mon, you can do better.

I mean...I can. But it's Friday and I don't want too.

Also, who cares about this Kirk guy. They can't even get his middle name right!

 

[Jedi Marso]

Nope. Because Voyager references the events of First Contact, and the borg signal sent out from ENT: Regeneration is why there are borg in the Beta Quadrant in TNG/Pre-TNG

Also going with your theory, that would mean the Enterprise-E returned to an alternate timeline.

Eeehhhhh..... That depends on how you want to interpret that...

At the end of FC, there has been no significant 'change' to the timeline yet, so you can argue the Ent-E returns to its own timeline. The change comes later, when Zephram Cochrane and Lily speak or act slightly differently based on their past experience and interaction with the Ent-E crew, followed by the discovery of Borg tech (debris) which might or might not accelerate technological development a bit. What you have then is a 'branching' of the timeline into a new quantum state (Think Parallels), which continues independently into the world of Enterprise, Disco, and SNW. TOS and TNG will happen slightly differently now, and with slightly accelerated technological advancement.

Man, I hate temporal mechanics, but I do love arguing (discussin?) these timeline shenanigans...

 

[fireproof78]

What you have then is a 'branching' of the timeline into a new quantum state (Think Parallels), which continues independently into the world of Enterprise, Disco, and SNW. TOS and TNG will happen slightly differently now, and with slightly accelerated technological advancement.

Yup.

It arn't that hard.

 

[Citiprime]

No...sorry...the actions of The Gorn in the original TOS S1 Arena could hardly be construed as a "misunderstanding"...
^^^
And if that what the TOS script author was going for, he failed BIG TIME.

The episode opens with Kirk and Co. in the Transporter Room ACTUALLY SPEAKING (in real time) with someone they believe in a Star Fleet Commodore - Commodore Travers. They are actually having a belieavable and casual discussion with him.

Then they beam down and find the Colony completely wiped out.

They find a survivor who tell them exactly what happened: The Gorn came in using the normal approach route and at 'Space Normal Speed' Then without warning immediately attacked.

The Outpost called up, and tried to surrender, telling the Gorn they had women and children (and given everything in the episode to this point it's crystal clear the Gorn UNDERSTOOD the message from the base: "We surrender and have women and children." The Gorn response? Per the survivor: "They poured it on..."

Then Kirk relates the fact that the Enterprise received two messages from Cestus III - the first one asking them to divert there, and the second asking that Kirk and a tactical team beam down.

The Survivor relates that the Gorn attacked the Base a full day befor the 1701 got there and, "No messages came from us."

So, no, there was no "misunderstanding" here. The Gorn had IN DEPTH knowledge of the Federation and Star Fleet, (to the point they could effectively fake and carry on a conversation of/as a KNOWN Star Fleet Commodore (Travers), ignored an offer of surrender, and then laid a detailed trap to lure a mainline Star Fleet Heavy Cruiser into a situation where the combat capabilities of it, and its crew could be engaged and evaluated/tested.

This was no simple "misunderstanding". What the Gorn did in TOS S1 Arena was cold and calculated to the extreme.

The military information the Gorn may have gotten from attacking the base was TOO DETAILED to be the result of a days worth of study - and when you look at how utterly destroyed the Base itself was; all the info on the Federation and Star Fleet the Gorn had, must have been obtained PRIOR to there attack. There were no usable records to retrieve from the rubble that was the Cestus III outpost after the Gorn attack.

If anything, the Gorn story line of La'an in SNW EXPLAINS just how the Gorn had SO MUCH detailed information on the Federation and Star Fleet prior to the attack they committed, and well planned and executed trap they laid for the 1701 in TOS S1 Arena, years after the events seen in SNW so far

From “Arena”:

KIRK [on viewscreen]: You butchered helpless human beings​

GORN [OC]: We destroyed invaders, as I shall destroy you!​

MCCOY: Can that be true? Was Cestus III an intrusion on their space?​

SPOCK: It may well be possible, Doctor. We know very little about that section of the galaxy.​

MCCOY: Then we could be in the wrong.​

SPOCK: Perhaps. That is something best decided by diplomats.​

MCCOY: The Gorn simply might have been trying to protect themselves.​

SPOCK: Yes.
​

And how Kirk proves humanity is more civilized than the Metrons believe...

KIRK: No. No, I won't kill you. Maybe you thought you were protecting yourself when you attacked the outpost. (He throws the dagger away, stands up and shouts to the sky)​

 

[fireproof78]

That's supposition not conclusive.