Spoilers Star Trek: Picard General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Picard' started by Tuskin38, Sep 28, 2019.

  1. Danja

    Danja Commodore Commodore

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    "The Bonding" is over thirty years old. Does he expect the episode to be preserved in amber?

    At the time, Picard was Captain of a starship. He had to put up a front for the sake of the crew.

    The whole point of Picard is the deconstruction of Jean-Luc. How will he behave if he's taken away from the familiar?
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022 at 2:36 PM
  2. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    Ha, that sums it up for me too. I’m less engaged in Trek now than I have been for almost 30 years. I like the current content as much or more than anything from those years, but I’m just sick to death of the fans (or, rather, the portion who so noisily gatekeep and bash modern Trek).


    Yeah, that angle makes me laugh. People were going on about PIC “ruining Picard’s legacy”. I’ll take PIC over hooning around in a dune buggy while Worf fires at natives.
     
  3. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    NEM was mediocre in 2002 and it's mediocre now. PIC's quality has no effect on how Stuart Baird mishandled that film.
     
  4. Richard S. Ta

    Richard S. Ta Commodore Commodore

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    What does that even mean?
     
  5. Kzinti

    Kzinti Commander Red Shirt

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    the only good thing about NEM are the ships scene the rest is mediocre
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2022 at 1:03 AM
  6. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, do not go there with the gatekeeping. No one gets to decide what constitutes a “true” Star Trek fan is.
     
  7. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Trufan™.

    Ask for it by meh.
     
  8. StewMc

    StewMc Commodore Commodore

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    The most amazing thing about the gatekeeping is how TOS through to ENT (and NEM) are considered some sort of cohesive whole now. Remember when TNG was accused of being a rip off of TOS in its early days and had no new ideas. DS9 was against Gene's vision and wasn't true Star Trek as it wasn't set on a starship. Voyager was "TNG-lite", and there was outrage when "Dark Frontier" seemingly rewrote the Federation's history with the Borg. ENT came along and that was considered a travesty as it looked more advanced than TOS despite it being set over a century before, had a starship that looked like a different class from 200 years in the future, and had studio meddling to "sex up" certain aspects for the younger audience. Nemesis was, well, Nemesis.

    Yet 20 years later, it's all apparently considered untouchable, and how dare Discovery/PIC/SNW not fully line up canon wise with a bunch of canon that contradicted itself to begin with?
     
  9. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And in 20 years, once something new is out there that the truFans hate, they’ll claim it tarnishes all the good work that Roddenberry, Bennett, Berman, Abrams and Kurtzman did before.

    All this has happened before… Break the fucking cycle already and realize that a franchise that has spanned almost 60 years is going to have a wide variety of fans with different tastes in their Trek. Myopic individuals who consider only what they believe to be “real” are the only “true fans” need to realize their preferences aren’t the only ones out there.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022 at 11:39 AM
  10. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I didn't bring this up last night because I didn't see the point, but the Gatekeeper neglected to mention that Michael Piller wrote Insurrection. Michael Piller is only the guy who was the Showrunner of TNG from Seasons 3 to 5 and who Ron Moore worked for.

    The Dominion War was also going on in the background during the film and Picard, like a lot of other people in the Federation, had woken up to the idea that maybe they shouldn't have given so much up just to make peace with the Cardassians, which didn't even last and the Cardassians took full advantage of while it did. The True Fan should remember what happened in "The Maquis" two-parter about how the Cardassians treated former Federation colonies in the Demilitarized Zone, about how even the Dominion thought the Federation's treaty with the Cardassians was a tactical error in "The Jem'Hadar", and how even Sisko had begun to loosen up on his view of the Maquis at the end of "Blaze of Glory", after Eddington died.

    Picard in Insurrection probably felt bad about what happened all those years ago in "Journey's End" and wanted to make up for it by doing what was right this time around, when faced with a similar situation. Picard even felt bad about it during "Journey's End" itself, but hadn't yet reached a point where he thought enough was enough.

    I don't even like Insurrection that much, but Picard's actions aren't why. I think the film is too light-hearted for its subject matter and it didn't go as far as it could've. I don't blame Michael Piller for this but rather the studio who tried to pull him in a particular direction and Patrick Stewart, who had too much power by that point. Piller couldn't handle him like Chabon could.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022 at 3:52 PM
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    A fan a person agrees with. Because fans should only have one opinion that I agree with.
     
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  12. Amasov

    Amasov Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Holy shit. You and I agree on something! :lol:
     
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  13. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think that is expected is for Star Trek to remain preserved and unchanged by the passage of time. There is a clear desire to keep things as they were, or perceived in the mind's eye. And, more so, what I find is that something like Picard really cuts against the grain for many who grew up with TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT which, while different in quality, had a similar tone or consistency, at least at the surface level. Picard is a change, and, well, people don't always do well with change; I certainly didn't for the longest time.

    In general, I am eternally fascinated by the fan mindset, not only in the idea of preservation, but also the resistance to changes in a beloved item. The older I get the more I struggle with this mindset though because it basically creates little kingdoms and principalities that are to remain the same, regardless of the passage of time. Any intrusion in to it causes a great deal of discomfort. And I think that causes the reactionary stances we get, including "preserved in amber," or expectations of "respecting past works" with fictional characters which do not mandate respect.

    Sorry, those are my idle musings on the psychology of fandom. I find it more fascinating because I don't even think many are aware of it.
     
  14. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    “It's storytelling through complication, miscommunication, and retroactive continuity. Three of the worst forms of storytelling.”

    I’ve not watched the video that was posted upthread nor have I any desire to do so. But as Charts laid out this nugget, I think I’ll dissect the line bit by bit (well, two, because who knows on one of them):

    Without complication of the story, you wouldn’t have some of the better points in genre fiction: had you left Darth Vader the baddie in the original Star Wars and never complicated the situation by making him Luke’s dad, what some consider to be the best movie in the Star Wars trilogy would have been “okay” at best. If you had not complicated the story of “Space Seed,” you’d have a perfectly passable story that you might wonder one day, “Whatever happened to Ricardo Montalban’s character on Star Trek. Now, some believe The Wrath of Khan is the pinnacle of those movies because they complicated his story.

    Miscommunication? Again, not going to watch the video but I’m not entirely sure what he’s talking about here.

    As for retcons? Well, that’s never happened at all in Trek. I mean, there’s always been a Borg Queen. NX-01? Always existed. Didn’t put it on the TMP Rec room wall, but always planned. The Klingons? Always looked like they did in TMP-Enterprise. But not Discovery. Never Discovery.
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Oh, come on. That little twist you can spot miles away and everyone saw it coming. We didn't need Vader's complicated back story. He's better as a 1 dimensional villain! ;)

    Ok, snark aside, it's just funny to me how inserting new details is viewed as complicating matters. Trek has a history of adding in family members for the sake of complication, Spock's father, Picard's brother, Troi's mother. Those are complications done for the sake of drama. Not because people already had it planned out.
     
  16. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, in a way, the drama does complicate the tale. But isn’t that what life is? Continued complications? You meet new people, develop new relationships that complicate your story. Sometimes smaller things and sometimes you are massively changed by those complications.

    In the past, I’ve likened Trek to a tapestry. The bigger it gets, the more detail you see.

    When this whole new Trek thing was announced, would I have preferred them to leave Spock’s history alone and not make him have a human sister? Yeah. I might not have wanted a continuation of Picard’s story. I wouldn’t have wanted more Pike— what am I saying? Absolutely I wanted more Pike! But Spock and Picard? Yeah, I would have been okay leaving those characters in the past. Regardless of that, this is what we’re getting. It’s not what I wanted for the most part, but I’ve largely enjoyed what we’ve gotten. One does not have to agree with this viewpoint to be a true Star Trek fan in my eyes.
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    This. 100% this. I did not ask for any of what we have, though I'm happy with the Pike series because Pike has been something I have had interest for a while.
     
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  18. Campe

    Campe Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed! And SNW has not disappointed!
     
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  19. Danja

    Danja Commodore Commodore

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    Spock's adopted sister ... :whistle:
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2022 at 10:04 PM
  20. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Your pain runs deep. Share it with me.