Spoilers Star Trek: Picard General Discussion Thread

[Lord Garth]

I didn't bring this up last night because I didn't see the point, but the Gatekeeper neglected to mention that Michael Piller wrote Insurrection. Michael Piller is only the guy who was the Showrunner of TNG from Seasons 3 to 5 and who Ron Moore worked for.

The Dominion War was also going on in the background during the film and Picard, like a lot of other people in the Federation, had woken up to the idea that maybe they shouldn't have given so much up just to make peace with the Cardassians, which didn't even last and the Cardassians took full advantage of while it did. The True Fan should remember what happened in "The Maquis" two-parter about how the Cardassians treated former Federation colonies in the Demilitarized Zone, about how even the Dominion thought the Federation's treaty with the Cardassians was a tactical error in "The Jem'Hadar", and how even Sisko had begun to loosen up on his view of the Maquis at the end of "Blaze of Glory", after Eddington died.

Picard in Insurrection probably felt bad about what happened all those years ago in "Journey's End" and wanted to make up for it by doing what was right this time around, when faced with a similar situation. Picard even felt bad about it during "Journey's End" itself, but hadn't yet reached a point where he thought enough was enough.

I don't even like Insurrection that much, but Picard's actions aren't why. I think the film is too light-hearted for its subject matter and it didn't go as far as it could've. I don't blame Michael Piller for this but rather the studio who tried to pull him in a particular direction and Patrick Stewart, who had too much power by that point. Piller couldn't handle him like Chabon could.

 

[fireproof78]

What does that even mean?

A fan a person agrees with. Because fans should only have one opinion that I agree with.

 

[Amasov]

While I think PIC Season 2 was weaker than Season 1, my opinion of the first season is so high that even a weaker second season is still pretty good.

Holy shit. You and I agree on something!

 

[fireproof78]

"The Bonding" is over thirty years old. Does he expect the episode to be preserved in amber?

At the time, Picard was Captain of a starship. He had to put up a front for the sake of the crew.

The whole point of Picard is the deconstruction of Jean-Luc. How will he behave if he's taken away from the familiar?

I think that is expected is for Star Trek to remain preserved and unchanged by the passage of time. There is a clear desire to keep things as they were, or perceived in the mind's eye. And, more so, what I find is that something like Picard really cuts against the grain for many who grew up with TNG-DS9-VOY-ENT which, while different in quality, had a similar tone or consistency, at least at the surface level. Picard is a change, and, well, people don't always do well with change; I certainly didn't for the longest time.

In general, I am eternally fascinated by the fan mindset, not only in the idea of preservation, but also the resistance to changes in a beloved item. The older I get the more I struggle with this mindset though because it basically creates little kingdoms and principalities that are to remain the same, regardless of the passage of time. Any intrusion in to it causes a great deal of discomfort. And I think that causes the reactionary stances we get, including "preserved in amber," or expectations of "respecting past works" with fictional characters which do not mandate respect.

Sorry, those are my idle musings on the psychology of fandom. I find it more fascinating because I don't even think many are aware of it.

 

[Campe]

“It's storytelling through complication, miscommunication, and retroactive continuity. Three of the worst forms of storytelling.”

I’ve not watched the video that was posted upthread nor have I any desire to do so. But as Charts laid out this nugget, I think I’ll dissect the line bit by bit (well, two, because who knows on one of them):

Without complication of the story, you wouldn’t have some of the better points in genre fiction: had you left Darth Vader the baddie in the original Star Wars and never complicated the situation by making him Luke’s dad, what some consider to be the best movie in the Star Wars trilogy would have been “okay” at best. If you had not complicated the story of “Space Seed,” you’d have a perfectly passable story that you might wonder one day, “Whatever happened to Ricardo Montalban’s character on Star Trek. Now, some believe The Wrath of Khan is the pinnacle of those movies because they complicated his story.

Miscommunication? Again, not going to watch the video but I’m not entirely sure what he’s talking about here.

As for retcons? Well, that’s never happened at all in Trek. I mean, there’s always been a Borg Queen. NX-01? Always existed. Didn’t put it on the TMP Rec room wall, but always planned. The Klingons? Always looked like they did in TMP-Enterprise. But not Discovery. Never Discovery.

 

[fireproof78]

Without complication of the story, you wouldn’t have some of the better points in genre fiction: had you left Darth Vader the baddie in the original Star Wars and never complicated the situation by making him Luke’s dad, what some consider to be the best movie in the Star Wars trilogy would have been “okay” at best.

Oh, come on. That little twist you can spot miles away and everyone saw it coming. We didn't need Vader's complicated back story. He's better as a 1 dimensional villain!

Ok, snark aside, it's just funny to me how inserting new details is viewed as complicating matters. Trek has a history of adding in family members for the sake of complication, Spock's father, Picard's brother, Troi's mother. Those are complications done for the sake of drama. Not because people already had it planned out.

 

[Campe]

I mean, in a way, the drama does complicate the tale. But isn’t that what life is? Continued complications? You meet new people, develop new relationships that complicate your story. Sometimes smaller things and sometimes you are massively changed by those complications.

In the past, I’ve likened Trek to a tapestry. The bigger it gets, the more detail you see.

When this whole new Trek thing was announced, would I have preferred them to leave Spock’s history alone and not make him have a human sister? Yeah. I might not have wanted a continuation of Picard’s story. I wouldn’t have wanted more Pike— what am I saying? Absolutely I wanted more Pike! But Spock and Picard? Yeah, I would have been okay leaving those characters in the past. Regardless of that, this is what we’re getting. It’s not what I wanted for the most part, but I’ve largely enjoyed what we’ve gotten. One does not have to agree with this viewpoint to be a true Star Trek fan in my eyes.

 

[fireproof78]

Regardless of that, this is what we’re getting. It’s not what I wanted for the most part, but I’ve largely enjoyed what we’ve gotten. One does not have to agree.

This. 100% this. I did not ask for any of what we have, though I'm happy with the Pike series because Pike has been something I have had interest for a while.

 

[Campe]

This. 100% this. I did not ask for any of what we have, though I'm happy with the Pike series because Pike has been something I have had interest for a while.

Agreed! And SNW has not disappointed!

 

[Danja]

Trek has a history of adding in family members for the sake of complication, Spock's father, Picard's brother, Troi's mother.

Spock's adopted sister ...

 

[cooleddie74]

Your pain runs deep. Share it with me.

 

[Campe]

What do you know of my pain?

Oh, you’re privy to the gatekeepers too. Nevermind.

 

[shapeshifter]

Spock's adopted sister ...

<maxwell smart> AAAnd Loooving it.

 

[fireproof78]

Spock's adopted sister ...

Spock's brother. Sarek's first wife, and third wife. Kirk's son. Spock's wife...

 

[cooleddie74]

McCoy's father dying of an illness that his son found the cure for shortly thereafter.

 

[fireproof78]

McCoy's father dying of an illness that his son found the cure for shortly thereafter.

Kirk's wild affair with Antonia.

 

[dupersuper]

Sarek's first wife

Well, Sybok's mother, at least...

 

[Campe]

Kirk's wild affair with Antonia.

Kirk having a son.
Kirk losing his best friend.
Kirk losing his son.
Kirk destroying his ship.

 

[Noname Given]

Spock's adopted sister ...

You forgot Sybok, Spock's half brother.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Great review.

Dan Murrell addresses almost all the major problems of Picard season 2.

From the smaller, more obvious problems, like:

And that the writers don't know what "Ten Forward" is.

To the continuing problem that NuTrek writers (including the writers on Discovery) don't know what a starship refit is:

To the showrunner's "don't care" attitude:

And one of the big problems:

I also like that he's taking apart Terry Matalas' nonsensical interviews and Tweets multiple times.

One thing Dan Murrell points out, something I had not really considered, is that Picard S2 contradicts the message of "The Bonding".

"The Bonding" was the first TNG episode written by Ronald D. Moore.
It reminds me of how "Star Trek Insurrection" contradicts "Journey's End".
"Journey's End" is coincidentally another episode written by Ronald D. Moore.

Dan Murrell is a true Star Trek fan with a deep understanding and knowledge of TNG. He previously worked for Screen Junkies and wrote the "Honest Trailers - Star Trek: The Next Generation".
He also has a weekly show where he analyses box office numbers. The show is called "Charts with Dan".