Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x05 - "Die Trying"

[TimeIsAPredator]

I’m talking about a specific group of haters who have hated the show from the beginning and don’t see the evolution or changes the show has made. Criticism is great; continual, completely biased commentary is what gets tiresome.

I’m also a little confused why you argued against the Mary Sue peddler stereotype and then go on to make a Mary Sue argument later in your post anyway? Can’t have it both ways IMO.

I’ll also address the actual Mary Sue argument. Some haters dislike the show so much that they can’t see (or maybe aren’t willing to see) examples of growth in its writing and portrayal of other characters. I mean last season we had Pike save the day multiple times. Airiam sacrificed herself to save the day, with Nhan helping while Burnham was actually emotionally unable to do so. Stamets made the key repair to power the ship hours after recovering from a severe impalement. Saru defused the situation on the mining planet, then figured out how to get his crew’s morale back up. Culber is getting some pretty good screen time lately. Are these all not examples of giving other characters their “scraps of glory?”

This is not much different from traditional Trek where each character often had the chance to contribute something, but the main characters got most of the glory. The only significant difference is that the seasons are shorter so you have less flexibility to dedicate whole episodes to supporting characters. And even then it took 4 to 5 seasons to flesh out characters like Geordi or Bashir.

I don't believe Burnham is a Mary Sue I really don't like that phrase at all and it was used a lot by people I do not wish to be associated with to be honest
But the writers do take unnecessary steps to get Burnham front and centre and I don't think it works. Now you have said the show has changed and it has bit it would work better for me if that aspect changed more and I think it a fair criticism

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I don't think they turned them off, they're just invisible.

Ya that's what I got too.
Makes sense as well I mean why would you want to look through a blue bubble

 

[TheMadCloner]

I don't believe Burnham is a Mary Sue I really don't like that phrase at all and it was used a lot by people I do not wish to be associated with to be honest
But the writers do take unnecessary steps to get Burnham front and centre and I don't think it works. Now you have said the show has changed and it has bit it would work better for me if that aspect changed more and I think it a fair criticism

I think everybody is entitled to their opinion and from that standpoint most things qualify as fair criticism. I’m just making the point that some of the people who hate this show will always hate it because of fundamental issues with how it’s written or how characters are portrayed. It’s just interesting to me because as their list of justifiable complaints gets smaller, you can really just narrow it right down to key issues such as strong dislike of Burnham the character. Mostly everything else is fluff; that’s really the core issue, and the show could improve in many other ways but would still never be able to win these fans over because of these core issues.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I think everybody is entitled to their opinion and from that standpoint most things qualify as fair criticism. I’m just making the point that some of the people who hate this show will always hate it because of fundamental issues with how it’s written or how characters are portrayed. It’s just interesting to me because as their list of justifiable complaints gets smaller, you can really just narrow it right down to key issues such as strong dislike of Burnham the character. Mostly everything else is fluff; that’s really the core issue, and the show could improve in many other ways but would still never be able to win these fans over because of these core issues.

I agree the lost of complaints has gotten smaller as the show has improved each year. If season 3 is anything like the other 2 though get ready for an avalanche later on as CBS Trek has a habit of being better at the build up than the ending. Even a die hard Picard fan like myself can admit the last 2 episodes suck

But for me even Burnham and Tilly started out great this season before old patterns emerged and I do praise them in episodes where I feel it is merited and anyone who can't see change between day one and now should just stop watching

 

[Vger23]

I think everybody is entitled to their opinion and from that standpoint most things qualify as fair criticism. I’m just making the point that some of the people who hate this show will always hate it because of fundamental issues with how it’s written or how characters are portrayed. It’s just interesting to me because as their list of justifiable complaints gets smaller, you can really just narrow it right down to key issues such as strong dislike of Burnham the character. Mostly everything else is fluff; that’s really the core issue, and the show could improve in many other ways but would still never be able to win these fans over because of these core issues.

It's pretty simple, if you don't like the foundational elements of something, you're not likely to change your mind because of minor format or character tweaks.

It's certainly ok to not like DSC (it's admittedly very divisive, because it dared to be different and break strongly from the tone, format, and style of previous Trek series...so it's expected that it will not be everyone's favorite!)...but to pretend that you're watching it to "see if it will get better, because I'm a loyal fan" is a bit disingenuous. I've found that it's kind of the wool people tend to pull over their own eyes to avoid the reality that they are just torturing themselves with something they KNOW they won't like.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't believe Burnham is a Mary Sue I really don't like that phrase at all and it was used a lot by people I do not wish to be associated with to be honest
But the writers do take unnecessary steps to get Burnham front and centre and I don't think it works. Now you have said the show has changed and it has bit it would work better for me if that aspect changed more and I think it a fair criticism

Genuine question time, because I don't think too many people carry on with the Mary Sue argument for reasons that have been discussed at length. That said, what is the difference between Burnham and other main characters? What are the writers doing that are unnecessary steps that set her apart from main characters in other shows, and not just Trek shows?

 

[TheMadCloner]

It's pretty simple, if you don't like the foundational elements of something, you're not likely to change your mind because of minor format or character tweaks.

It's certainly ok to not like DSC (it's admittedly very divisive, because it dared to be different and break strongly from the tone, format, and style of previous Trek series...so it's expected that it will not be everyone's favorite!)...but to pretend that you're watching it to "see if it will get better, because I'm a loyal fan" is a bit disingenuous. I've found that it's kind of the wool people tend to pull over their own eyes to avoid the reality that they are just torturing themselves with something they KNOW they won't like.

It really is a matter of perspective. If you watch a show just looking for things to dislike to justify your beliefs, all you’re doing is feeding back your own bias.

 

[USS Firefly]

What are the writers doing that are unnecessary steps that set her apart from main characters in other shows, and not just Trek shows?

One thing for me is that I find her arrogant. For example, like in the first episode this season she judge Booker harshly while she isn't honest herself.
I just find her a little bit too much I guess, I find this a little bit difficult to translate in English.

But mostly I love the rest of the crew/cast so much.
And I want to know more about them, the diner scene in episode 4 was so good!
Normally you have a couple of weak links in a cast but I don't think Discovery has one.

 

[Timo]

I don't think they turned them off, they're just invisible.

That's clever. And very TOS, where all forcefields were invisible unless challenged.

The remaining mystery is why those plants thrive when the atmosphere is poison to "most other life forms". Or perhaps it's not the air alone, and Barzan is a hellhole in many ways, no single one of them being sufficient to kill alien plants?

Might be Attis only liberated plants that were compatible with Barzans, of course - those might have the best chances of providing a cure for death in the Barzan case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[fireproof78]

One thing for me is that I find her arrogant. For example, like in the first episode this season she judge Booker harshly while she isn't honest herself.
I just find her a little bit too much I guess

That's fair. Not to push too hard but how does her being arrogant make her different from other main characters in other shows?

 

[cooleddie74]

Burnham has nothing on TNG Seasons 1 and 2 Picard when it comes to arrogance. I love Picard as a character but if he'd never developed past the sophomore year of TNG he'd be one of the most unlikable leads in Trek history if not the least likable.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That's fair. Not to push too hard but how does her being arrogant make her different from other main characters in other shows?

Especially Picard.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Burnham isn't anywhere near as arrogant as Picard.

There, I said it.

 

[Noname Given]

I find that odd. It took the movie First Contact for Geordie to get artificial eyes, so why didn't they do that in the TV show if the technology was already there?

Because he wouldn't look 'cool'. Hell, for me the funniest, most ridiculous sequence they ever did in TNG season 1 was in "Heart Of Glory" when they beam over to a Freighter and take a RAW FEED of Geordi's visor to be able to 'see' what's going on and Geordi has to give them an audio play by play because TV snow/an old style scrambled porn channel feed looks clearer.
^^^
I was laughing my ass off at how they were all 'amazed' by this because I was thinking:

"In the 24th century, with everything else they can tie into the new 24th century Comm Badges they CAN'T just add a f**king CAMERA and be done with it?"

 

[Deks]

That's clever. And very TOS, where all forcefields were invisible unless challenged.

The remaining mystery is why those plants thrive when the atmosphere is poison to "most other life forms". Or perhaps it's not the air alone, and Barzan is a hellhole in many ways, no single one of them being sufficient to kill alien plants?

Might be Attis only liberated plants that were compatible with Barzans, of course - those might have the best chances of providing a cure for death in the Barzan case.

Timo Saloniemi

Nhan did mention that Barzan atmosphere lends to accelerated plant growth... so, it could be that which the plants benefit from, most other humanoid lifeforms can't stand?

Also, it was said that the seeds were broken out of the vault because dr. Attis was looking for a cure... we don't know which seeds he took out.. and as such, its possible he took those that happen to thrive in Barzan atmosphere.

 

[Amasov]

I never thought I'd see the words "Kazon" again. But here we are.

 

[USS Firefly]

That's fair. Not to push too hard but how does her being arrogant make her different from other main characters in other shows?

In my opinion my favorite captain Sisko wasn't that arrogant. And on TNG not every episode was about Picard or on DS9 about Sisko

 

[ananta]

I will argue til the end of time that a lot of the hate Burnham gets comes from sexism, whether that’s conscious or not. Kira got the same back in DS9, and the suits demanded the writers ‘tone back’ her character. Thank goodness they haven’t put Burnham in a catsuit with six inch heels. Yet.

A little part of me dies inside whenever I see the term “Mary Sue”. By that yardstick the entire Enterprise D crew are Mary Sues. The bottom line is that Burnham is a conflicted character who is far from perfect, who makes big mistakes, but who strives to do and to be better. If the character were male, I swear she’d be hailed as one of the show’s most compelling leads. Someone earlier in this thread said she was being a “bellend” this week (a very British insult). Yeah she was being a little impetuous and pushing boundaries. She made a couple of wrong calls. But she also handled herself brilliantly in command of the mission and I enjoyed watching that. Again, this conflict makes the character interesting and dynamic. God forbid everyone was a stoic “evolved human” as on TNG. That just doesn’t cut it on a drama series, at least not anymore.

 

[Amasov]

I will argue til the end of time that a lot of the hate Burnham gets comes from sexism, whether that’s conscious or not. Kira got the same back in DS9, and the suits demanded the writers ‘tone back’ her character. Thank goodness they haven’t put Burnham in a catsuit with six inch heels. Yet.

A little part of me dies inside whenever I see the term “Mary Sue”. By that yardstick the entire Enterprise D crew are Mary Sues. The bottom line is that Burnham is a conflicted character who is far from perfect, who makes big mistakes, but who strives to do and to be better. If the character were male, I swear she’d be hailed as one of the show’s most compelling leads. Someone earlier in this thread said she was being a “bellend” this week (a very British insult). Yeah she was being a impetuous and pushing boundaries. She made a couple of wrong calls. But she also handled herself brilliantly in command of the mission and I enjoyed watching that. Again, this conflict makes the character interesting and dynamic. God forbid everyone was a stoic “evolved human” as on TNG. That just doesn’t cut it on a drama series, at least not anymore.

For me, it's starting to feel like Michael finally has a place this season. The last two years I don't think the writing treated her well. Totally agreed on how great it was to see her in command.

 

[fireproof78]

In my opinion my favorite captain Sisko wasn't that arrogant. And on TNG not every episode was about Picard or on DS9 about Sisko

But, my original post in response to another was what make Burnham different from other protagonists in other shows? Or even Kirk stepping up to solve the problem? Or Janeway?

My overall point is that main characters and protagonists are going to be front and center. Maybe Trek is a little different in its history but the whole point of Discovery was to (attempt at least) do something different. The main character wasn't a captain, etc.

Bottom line-I don't see Burnham out of line with main characters, either Trek or not. People can not like the main character, certainly that's fine. I'm no fan of Picard and my trying to get through TNG keeps cementing that. But, I don't see Burnham out of step with that.