Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x05 - "Die Trying"

[USS Firefly]

But, my original post in response to another was what make Burnham different from other protagonists in other shows? Or even Kirk stepping up to solve the problem? Or Janeway?

I don't remember Kirk but I don't like Janeway because how inconsistent they wrote her.
And maybe I find Burnham more annoying because I want to know more about the crew.

 

[Muji]

I will argue til the end of time that a lot of the hate Burnham gets comes from sexism, whether that’s conscious or not. Kira got the same back in DS9, and the suits demanded the writers ‘tone back’ her character. Thank goodness they haven’t put Burnham in a catsuit with six inch heels. Yet.

A little part of me dies inside whenever I see the term “Mary Sue”. By that yardstick the entire Enterprise D crew are Mary Sues. The bottom line is that Burnham is a conflicted character who is far from perfect, who makes big mistakes, but who strives to do and to be better. If the character were male, I swear she’d be hailed as one of the show’s most compelling leads. Someone earlier in this thread said she was being a “bellend” this week (a very British insult). Yeah she was being a little impetuous and pushing boundaries. She made a couple of wrong calls. But she also handled herself brilliantly in command of the mission and I enjoyed watching that. Again, this conflict makes the character interesting and dynamic. God forbid everyone was a stoic “evolved human” as on TNG. That just doesn’t cut it on a drama series, at least not anymore.

Yes. Very yes. I’ve been saying this about Burnham for a long time. I even had a little rant about it in our Star Trek Zoom call (that people should check out), stating how her character is written with lots of complexity, subtext, subtlety, and really shows that she is actually a flawed individual who, rather than being arrogant, feels inadequate in some way and has to prove herself. She always acts appropriately for the stage in her journey. You’re spot on, and she is classed as one of the best, most compelling characters by some of us. Me anyway.

 

[Lord Garth]

For the future setting, if you want things to work, you'll find a way to make them work. Necessity is the mother of invention. When there's no necessity, there's no invention. Just improving what's already there. So I completely buy the Federation only changing so much before The Burn.

As far as Burnham, I think people who can't fully embrace diversity have no business talking about The Future. I don't even want to hear it.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Vulcans changed relatively little between their attainment of warp drive and First Contact with humans seeing as how they had warp technology for centuries prior to Earth and by the 22nd century were more or less even with mankind in galactic influence and overall power.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Genuine question time, because I don't think too many people carry on with the Mary Sue argument for reasons that have been discussed at length. That said, what is the difference between Burnham and other main characters? What are the writers doing that are unnecessary steps that set her apart from main characters in other shows, and not just Trek shows?

I cant think of a show similar to Trek where the main character starts a war by pulling a gun on her captain and gets let off in the next scene then dates the leader of the bad guys and is transported to mirror universe where the emperor is her surrogate mother and thats all before we find out her real mother is big reveal in season 2 and add to all that see is Spocks secret sister. A lot of these events could have been done with tweeks that would make the show better and stories seem smoother. I dont have a problem with the characters personality or acting but the plot writing surrounding her.

And I dont think other Trek is perfect either before anyone starts with but Kirk this but Archer that. I had issues with those shows too but they are 30+ years ago so the arguments have fizzled out

 

[fireproof78]

I cant think of a show similar to Trek where the main character starts a war by pulling a gun on her captain and gets let off in the next scene then dates the leader of the bad guys and is transported to mirror universe where the emperor is her surrogate mother and thats all before we find out her real mother is big reveal in season 2 and add to all that see is Spocks secret sister. A lot of these events could have been done with tweeks that would make the show better and stories seem smoother. I dont have a problem with the characters personality or acting but the plot writing surrounding her.

And I dont think other Trek is perfect either before anyone starts with but Kirk this but Archer that. I had issues with those shows too but they are 30+ years ago so the arguments have fizzled out

I don't think we will agree on this point, especially given how far back we are going. I don't see her being "let off" nor do I see the issues with the character simply because the writing choices are not that smooth. Reminds me of Farscape a bit where Crichton was constantly being the guy to solve the problem, start a war, and the like. Also, reminds me of JAG were a Navy lawyer can go toe to toe with a Navy SEAL in hand to hand combat, among other things.

I don't know. Maybe it's the shows I watch but Burnham doesn't stand out to me with all the character reveals as any different than any other protagonist that I have read or watched.

Mileage varies.

 

[137th Gebirg]

I cant think of a show similar to Trek where the main character starts a war by pulling a gun on her captain and gets let off in the next scene then dates the leader of the bad guys and is transported to mirror universe where the emperor is her surrogate mother and thats all before we find out her real mother is big reveal in season 2 and add to all that see is Spocks secret sister. A lot of these events could have been done with tweeks that would make the show better and stories seem smoother. I dont have a problem with the characters personality or acting but the plot writing surrounding her.

Now that you put it THAT way...

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

the whole point of Discovery was to (attempt at least) do something different. The main character wasn't a captain

Maybe thats part of the problem. It seems more natural when its the captain being a gobshite but when its a specialist shouting down superior officers and going off half cocked it kinda feels odd to me like all the lieutenants and commanders would be like "whos this idiot, get in line buddy"

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Gave this one an 8. Holy shit is Oded Fehr atrractive. There was other stuff i liked but oded fehr made me lose my train of thought

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

I don't think we will agree on this point, especially given how far back we are going. I don't see her being "let off" nor do I see the issues with the character simply because the writing choices are not that smooth. Reminds me of Farscape a bit where Crichton was constantly being the guy to solve the problem, start a war, and the like. Also, reminds me of JAG were a Navy lawyer can go toe to toe with a Navy SEAL in hand to hand combat, among other things.

I don't know. Maybe it's the shows I watch but Burnham doesn't stand out to me with all the character reveals as any different than any other protagonist that I have read or watched.

Mileage varies.

Anything other than prison for most of her life is being let off for what she done.

Also I hated Farscape and never understood why it is so highly rated and JAG I liked for a season or 2 when I was way too young to understand TV and wouldnt watch it now

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Gave this one an 8. Holy shit is Oded Fehr atrractive. There was other stuff i liked but oded fehr made me lose my train of thought

He can pull a serious "Blue Steel"

 

[fireproof78]

Anything other than prison for most of her life is being let off for what she done.

Also I hated Farscape and never understood why it is so highly rated and JAG I liked for a season or 2 when I was way too young to understand TV and wouldnt watch it now

Yeah, she didn't start the war is my view so I think we will agree to disagree at this point.

But, I greatly appreciate you explaining your position.

Maybe thats part of the problem. It seems more natural when its the captain being a gobshite but when its a specialist shouting down superior officers and going off half cocked it kinda feels odd to me like all the lieutenants and commanders would be like "whos this idiot, get in line buddy"

The amount of shows and books I've read where it's a lower ranking officer talking back to superiors is quite long. I guess I learned from the wrong sources

 

[cooleddie74]

Trip was a Commander who routinely told off his own Captain. Yes, they were friends as well and for years before both served on Enterprise but it wasn't out of the ordinary for the third-in-command to one-up his superiors and almost never be reprimanded.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Trip was a Commander who routinely told off his own Captain. Yes, they were friends as well and for years before both served on Enterprise but it wasn't out of the ordinary for the third-in-command to one-up his superiors and almost never be reprimanded.

Not to mention how trip initially treated t'pol which felt at times bordeline racist/misogynistic

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Trip was a Commander who routinely told off his own Captain. Yes, they were friends as well and for years before both served on Enterprise but it wasn't out of the ordinary for the third-in-command to one-up his superiors and almost never be reprimanded.

Trip was kinda a joint first officer in fairness. Especially early on and Chuckles and Kira done it too

Kira got the same back in DS9

I heard about the uniform change to sex her up but was there also a character change pushed too?
Sad to hear now how Kira and Dax were treated as they were both great characters and I especially looking back now and watching as an adult how sexually open and confident Dax is ( shes almost mirror universe at times )

 

[T'Bonz]

Re Burnham - I'd have liked to have had her kept some of the Vulcan reserve, but evidently she's full-on human now. Pity as it made her different than the rest of the humans.

The show is fine now that they've dumped Ash and the Klingons.

 

[Kevman7987]

The only real problem I ever had with Discovery was the lack of character development in the secondary characters. I'm enjoying the series much more now that they are.

 

[Precious Tritium]

Weirdly, this is the episode that sold me on Burnham being the captain over Saru. That little scene she had commanding Discovery was great. I really liked the way she didn't even touch the chair. Just strutted around the bridge issuing orders. Very Lorca-esque.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't remember Kirk but I don't like Janeway because how inconsistent they wrote her.
And maybe I find Burnham more annoying because I want to know more about the crew.

I've been watching Voyager for the first time over the last few months and I'm finding the claim of Janeway's inconsistency to be overstated. In fact, I'm warming to Voyager over all.

As for Burnham, I don't find her arrogant at all.

 

[Shawnster]

Lenses that I can think of: first gen TOS watcher (baby); Certified 70s Trek nerd child, with a Donmoor shirt, every book you can imagine, and several iterations of that damned AMT kit with drooping nacelles. Liker of TNG, fan of DS9 and VOY. Old reader of sf, golden through 80s. Don't like forced emotionalism. Want "Trek" to be GOOD-good, not decent-good, or good-for-Trek-good. Casual SW fan -- I know nothing of the extended tie-ins, even Clone Wars.

This almost describes me. Cut my teeth on TOS. I remember totally geeking out over "Encounter at Farpoint" enough to call my best bud at every commercial break to compare thoughts, enjoyed DS9, was in a Voyager fan club (but I feel VOY is my 2nd least favorite Trek), still shake my head and facepalm thinking about Enterprise. I want Trek to be great-good and not just decent-good. I'm more than a casual SW fan but I really do not know much beyond the televised/movies. Love Tilly. I think I'll like Strange New Worlds better than DISCO. Really enjoy PIC. Might rate DISCO equal or just above VOY (definitely like DISCO over JJ-Prise era movies). Read sci-fi up through mid 2010s...

But I find myself thinking Mandalorean is better than DISCO and much more "in-tune" to the mythos and Star Wars universe than DISCO is to Trek. Maybe I've got an inverted lens or something.