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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

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This is all very fascinating but doesn't it belong over in the TNG forum.

Q & Picard haven't shown up in DISCOVERY, that I know of... yet?

:)
 
(And that's the thorny issue with the Pike storyline here. The implication that the Trek universe can contain anything resembling a fixed "fate" is disturbing. As I noted upthread, we accept it as fixed, only because we've seen it in "The Menagerie." But we're not actually part of that universe; we have a privileged viewpoint. There's no reason Pike or anyone around him should accept it as fixed.)

The attitude in Trek has always been that the future isn't written from the characters POV. The time crystals are definitely a diversion from the POV.

A Matter of Time said:
RASMUSSEN: We're not just talking about a choice. It sounds to me like you're trying to manipulate the future.
PICARD: Every choice we make allows us to manipulate the future. Do I ask Adrienne or Suzanne to the spring dance? Do I take my holiday on Corsica or on Risa? A person's life, their future, hinges on each of a thousand choices. Living is making choices. Now you ask me to believe that if I make a choice other than the one found in your history books, then your past will be irrevocably altered. Well, you know, Professor, perhaps I don't give a damn about your past, because your past is my future and as far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been written yet.
 
One more thought about "why Pike keeps silent about his vision". Remembering "Lights and Shadows": Pike have seen he was shooting Tyler. In the first time it seemed like he defended from Tyler.
In the second time he understood that aimed at the probe's manipulator but missed. Then he gave an order to Tyler "Hold still!" and fired at the evil tentacle succesfully.
Now imagine that Pike told to anxious Tyler about his first vision. (Man, I just have seen that I will kill you...) Or that he killed Tyler immediately to prevent his probable assault. Would it be wise or stupid?

We know that it will end by a wheelchair. Сontrariwise Pike knows that a vision is not an accomplished fact, because he used one to correct the future. And he knows, that a vision can be misinterpreted.
 
And I do very much like the idea that Pike would take a particularly active interest in monitoring safety conditions aboard cadet vessels, given what he knows. I'd presume he would take whatever measures he could to prevent such disasters wherever possible, even knowing that sooner or later one will strike him down. And it won't just be the cadets he saves in that room who benefit. So too would all those, both before and after, who learn by and from his example, no doubt stressing the importance of being prepared for what hazards one can, yet mindful of the fact that there will always be those one can't.
I like this line of thinking. It seems entirely in-character.

Sure it has. "Time's Arrow" (TNG) is one example that comes to mind of Our Heroes™ not being able to escape what is fated. First Contact is an example of the Borg entrapping themselves in a paradox.
Can't agree with you here. "Time's Arrow" was certainly a complicated time loop, and First Contact was a recursive one, but neither one was a predestination paradox strictly speaking. I'll stand by the position that Trek doesn't do predestination.

The way it worked in the Kelvin films was, in Kurtzman and Orci's conception...
Meh, that was utter bullshit. They used a misunderstanding of quantum theory to straddle the fence between two different kinds of time-travel logic, basically in order to give themselves (and future writers) an excuse to make things either as similar to or as different from previous Trek as they might like, at whim, with no deeper guiding principle. A straightforward reboot would have done the same and been much cleaner, but then they wouldn't have gotten to use Nimoy.

[The Okudas say...] Questions such as those posed here ultimately become questions about the nature and mechanics of time travel, and therefore become questions about the rules of time travel in the Star Trek universe.
Well, yes. Of course! That's what makes all this interesting and worth discussing.

Pike may not have foreseen that particular ending for himself before now, but he must have long foreseen that any number of such grim fates potentially awaited him every single day of his Starfeet service.
Surely... but there's a big difference there. Lots of people go into situations involving long odds, but they do it with the conviction that they can beat those odds. Certainly that's what Kirk always thought, and did. Knowing in advance that the odds will beat you is a whole other can of worms.

The one was conditional upon the other. That was specified to him at the outset, and reiterated by him at the conclusion. What he saw was meant "for [him] alone." Pike gave his word to abide by that. The consequences of breaking it could be great, or less so; Pike has no way of knowing, and neither do we.
And, so? A promise made under duress is hardly binding. Pike was after a McGuffin on which the fate of all known civilizations depended; he could and should have said anything necessary to get it. Once he's away from Boreth and the monks, though, they have no sway over him... and as future lives also appear to be at stake in his vision, it only makes sense to share that information.
 
And, so? A promise made under duress is hardly binding. Pike was after a McGuffin on which the fate of all known civilizations depended; he could and should have said anything necessary to get it. Once he's away from Boreth and the monks, though, they have no sway over him... and as future lives also appear to be at stake in his vision, it only makes sense to share that information.
Good point. Although it's possible Starfleet in this idealistic future takes promises to alien people very seriously, even those made under duress.

I have no doubt though that if a ranking officer ordered Pike to submit a full unredacted Boreth report and Pike refused to do so over a promise, Pike would be severely censured. This is important information about a culture the Federation recently was at war with and was almost destroyed by.
 
And, so? A promise made under duress is hardly binding. Pike was after a McGuffin on which the fate of all known civilizations depended; he could and should have said anything necessary to get it. Once he's away from Boreth and the monks, though, they have no sway over him... and as future lives also appear to be at stake in his vision, it only makes sense to share that information.
WOW! It would certainly dishonor him as a Fed who lied to Timekeeper and stole Klingon's holy relic. Are you familiar with a term "casus belli"?

I have no doubt though that if a ranking officer ordered Pike to submit a full unredacted Boreth report and Pike refused to do so over a promise, Pike would be severely censured. This is important information about a culture the Federation recently was at war with and was almost destroyed by.
If a ranking officer forces a subordinate to do something, he takes full responsibility for the consequences.
 
The attitude in Trek has always been that the future isn't written from the characters POV. The time crystals are definitely a diversion from the POV.

In the same way that Christopher Pike is a diversion from previous Star Trek Captains.
 
The presence of the time crystals and the monks' role in their safekeeping might add some context to Worf's experiences there in "Rightful Heir." What do you all think of that? Sorry if it's already been brought up... I don't feel like reading through 61 pages of posts.

Kor
 
Save for the times when the future became locked in, like "Time's Arrow" where Data's head ended up under San Francisco, despite their awareness.
The ONLY constant thing WRT any Time Travel in Star Trek, it's that the 'rules' of any Time Travel event are INCONSISTENT and change based on the needs of the plot...much like how distance covered by a given warp factor often changes from episode to episode... ;)
 
(And that's the thorny issue with the Pike storyline here. The implication that the Trek universe can contain anything resembling a fixed "fate" is disturbing. As I noted upthread, we accept it as fixed, only because we've seen it in "The Menagerie." But we're not actually part of that universe; we have a privileged viewpoint. There's no reason Pike or anyone around him should accept it as fixed.)

As I take it, the future in-general isn't fixed from this point on, just that one event. It may take different forms or happen in various ways, but once pike took the crystal, every potentiality passes through that event. The rest are already might-have-beens
 
Save for the times when the future became locked in, like "Time's Arrow" where Data's head ended up under San Francisco, despite their awareness.
And all but the last loop in Cause and Effect, in which the crew discover the issue with trying to change a "known" future event:

PICARD: If you're right, perhaps we could escape the loop by avoiding the collision.
LAFORGE: That's our guess.
WORF: Maybe we should reverse course.
RIKER: For all we know, reversing course may be what leads us into the crash.
PICARD: No. We can't afford to start second guessing ourselves. We'll stay on this course until we have reason to change it. But let's do everything we can to avoid the collision.

Despite having audio recordings of the previous loop, they were unable to avoid their fate playing out again. Knowing the end of the story doesn't always help.
 
Save for the times when the future became locked in, like "Time's Arrow" where Data's head ended up under San Francisco, despite their awareness.
Yep. I don't think that time travel in Trek has ever worked in particularly consistent manner, which is understandable in a franchise spanning several decades made by countless different people. However, it is bit jarring how the temporal logic doesn't stay consistent in one season of one serialised show. The main plot relies on the idea that the future where Control kills everything can be avoided, yet in the case of Pike his future is fixed...
 
Yep. I don't think that time travel in Trek has ever worked in particularly consistent manner, which is understandable in a franchise spanning several decades made by countless different people. However, it is bit jarring how the temporal logic doesn't stay consistent in one season of one serialised show. The main plot relies on the idea that the future where Control kills everything can be avoided, yet in the case of Pike his future is fixed...
I think it will be interesting to see how that plays out with regards to Pike and Control. To my mind, it reminds me a bit of Doctor Who where some points are fixed or more likely to happen while others can be changed. Pike's fate just impacts him, while Control impacts the entirety of the galaxy. So, it might be a matter of scope of the impact.

Again, I'm in wait and see mode in terms of how things wrap up :)
 
One more thought about "why Pike keeps silent about his vision". Remembering "Lights and Shadows": Pike have seen he was shooting Tyler. In the first time it seemed like he defended from Tyler.
In the second time he understood that aimed at the probe's manipulator but missed. Then he gave an order to Tyler "Hold still!" and fired at the evil tentacle succesfully.
Now imagine that Pike told to anxious Tyler about his first vision. (Man, I just have seen that I will kill you...) Or that he killed Tyler immediately to prevent his probable assault. Would it be wise or stupid?

We know that it will end by a wheelchair. Сontrariwise Pike knows that a vision is not an accomplished fact, because he used one to correct the future. And he knows, that a vision can be misinterpreted.
I'd have to go back and watch that again, but did anything change from Pike's "vision" of shooting Tyler to the actual scene where he shot the tentacle?

It seems to me the only thing that changed was the context in which he was shooting -- the first one in the "vision" making it appear to Pike that he would have some reason to shoot Tyler (self defense or whatever), but in the second "real" event, it was shown why Pike was shooting Tyler, which was to shoot the tentacle thingy.

I don't think anything changed except Pike had some context as to why he would shoot at Tyler. His original vision of the event may not have included the "hold still" part, but that might only be due to Pike's vision only being a very short snippet of the event.
 
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