Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Apr 4, 2019.


Hit it!

  1. 10 - It passes with flying colors.

  2. 9

  3. 8

  4. 7

  5. 6

  6. 5

  7. 4

  8. 3

  9. 2

  10. 1 - This is not the Trek I'm loyal to.

  1. saladdays

    saladdays Captain Captain

    Jun 29, 2016
    If your criteria is that those stories just "worked" with the time travel logic used, what's to say that the story in Discovery can't work when all is said and done?

    And I don't think we all are ever going to agree with what is logical with time travel in Trek anyway.
  2. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Sep 2, 2008
    I first thought that. Pike seeing his fate and it coming true could be a simple predestination paradox in a story which used deterministic logic. No magic power apart being able to show the future would be required from the crystal. However, the Control storyline in this same season and indeed the whole reason why Pike needed the crystal requires that the time logic is not deterministic... I am willing to overlook such in episodic stories written by different authors and when the stories are not directly linked, but I really cannot overlook it here. It is not logical for Pike to think that he cannot alter his own fate (because time is deterministic) and at the same time think that he can save the galaxy from the Control (because time is not deterministic.)
    lawman and BillJ like this.
  3. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    Not to kick this down the road but shouldn't we wait and see?

    I mean, for me, it strikes me as similar to the Guardian of Forever where the Guardian can recognize alterations in time and then able to declare that things are as they were once before. Well, that implies, at least to me, that there is an order of some kind to the time line that can been in some way, manner, or form. Even Guinan could sense when a timeline wasn't right.

    There is clearly more to the time crystals than just dismissing them as "inanimate lumps of rock" and we don't have enough information yet.

    For now, it works for me. Doesn't for you. I'm OK with not knowing and letting the story play out, rather than demanding answers now.

    One comes from Pike being true to himself. The other comes from Pike determined to save lives and being true to himself.

    People accept paradoxes like this all the time, that things can both be changed and not at the same time. Part of my daily work. The key is figuring what can and can't be changed. Pike is clearly working to figure it out. One future has deemed acceptable and the other he has not. It is not in his nature to just accept not doing something to preserve life.
  4. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

    Apr 19, 2014
    Enterprise bowling alley
    yeah, I don't know bro. Sounds good.
  5. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

    Jul 24, 2011
    I didn't notice that the S31 ship had a registry the first time through

  6. Search4

    Search4 Captain Captain

    Mar 15, 2008
    New York City
    In a nasty twist of fate Pike’s accident causes the end of Control.
  7. MarsWeeps

    MarsWeeps Fleet Captain Premium Member

    Sep 5, 2011
  8. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

    Just remember, folks. No time travel story withstands scrutiny. Be kind to your blood pressure and take the story as it comes.
    Nyotarules, BillJ, burningoil and 6 others like this.
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    You mean...it's not real??????
    SJGardner and Alan Roi like this.
  10. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

    Jan 26, 2019
  11. Harpsichord

    Harpsichord Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Apr 3, 2019
    pfft The Doctor isn't even his own wife pre or post sex-change
  12. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

    Jan 26, 2019
    A but its not just about him not doing something about preserving life that is against his nature. One could do that as a safety inspector or actuarian or lawyer who never actually risks his life to do so. The Pike we've been presented to us has kind of a far more hands on Jesus complex. He has been shown to be repeatedly drawn to acts of personal sacrifice. And I could see him rationalizing his fate as such a challenge to his beliefs.

    A character comparison to him would be Brad Dourif's Brother Edward from the similarly powerful Babylon 5 episode, Passing Through Gethsemane.
  13. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Commodore Commodore

    Jan 26, 2019
    Maybe not yet... give her time. She's still got plenty of regenerations left to figure out a way to become her own grandpa.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  14. Rainard Fox

    Rainard Fox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Mar 17, 2019
    Previous conflict with the Klingon Empire was escalated because the single Federation Starfleet captain didn't find a couple of proper words, wasn't it?

    That's a reason on what I can't watch TNG.
    Let's see, an officer tells to his captain that they have to leave this place to avoid a certain risk, but he cannot say, what a risk it is. Is it a time to brutforce him to answer or is it a moment to move a ship with a crew in a safe place and looking for answers later?
  15. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 20, 2007
    Not necessarily. Sometimes a story is clearly foreshadowing future revelations, and then this attitude makes sense. But in the case at hand, there's no indication at all that the writers are planning to resolve the dilemma @Longinus identifies, or indeed that they even recognize it as a dilemma. If future episodes prove me wrong, I'll happily admit it, but I'm not holding my breath.

    They do? :confused: Who? How? Outside the boundaries of religion, I honestly can't think of a single example.

    That's not true, though. Plenty of well-thought-out, scrupulously logical time-travel stories have been written over the years.
  16. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Apr 13, 2004
    So. Cal.
    But my response was to your statement that we didn't learn anything new in Pike's "outing" on Boreth, and that's not true.
    Interesting topic. You may be right, however, I tend to believe that perhaps "fate", though not already "written", may already have happened. What if the time crystals actually showed Pike (or took him to) a dimension in which time does not exist and there is no "future" or "past". Everything is happening concurrently.

    So what Pike saw was the result of decisions he had already made. In other words Pike saw what everyone would see (their own past and future happening all at once), with the "veil" of time lifted.
    That would have seriously undercut the drama and gravitas of Pike's sacrifice. It would have been something that you would very likely have complained about. ;)
    TPezz, SJGardner and Alan Roi like this.
  17. Trinity Gingerbread

    Trinity Gingerbread Time is the thief of life Premium Member

    May 31, 2015
    Playing Horizon Zero Dawn and Tell Me Why
    Judging by some fan posts on FB and photos people what 13 and Yaz to hook up or something.
  18. Ovation

    Ovation Admiral Admiral

    They are extraordinarily well camouflaged. I’ve read/watched over 100–some are better at consistency and logic than others. None survives close scrutiny.
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    They keep saying things will work out. Now, I'm not holding my breath either, but I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. My attitude is to wait until I have all the information.
    Then I suggest not going into mental health :) One of the biggest challenges that I work with clients is learning the balancing between those things they can control and the things they cannot, and how to accept those intense feelings at the same time.

    If you want to dig more I suggest reading a little bit of Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.
  20. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 20, 2007
    Okay, context is important! I am not in the field of mental health, but I have friends who are, and I certainly trust you about the challenges involved. If you had written "People NEEDING MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT accept paradoxes like this all the time, that things can both be changed and not at the same time," I wouldn't have blinked. However, I hope and trust that such people are more the exception than the rule, and neither Pike nor the audience should be assumed to fall into that category.