Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Apr 4, 2019.

?

Hit it!

  1. 10 - It passes with flying colors.

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  10. 1 - This is not the Trek I'm loyal to.

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  1. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    What? Didn't you see the TARDIS in the latest leaked episode photos??!! ;)
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    at certain events, due to their larger impact in time, are fixed points because they impact so many other smaller points. Vesuvius was one that was specifically mentioned but we also seem other temporal mechanics that can fix points of time in place.

    I'm probably doing a terrible job explaining it but that was my takeaway.
     
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  3. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Captain Captain

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    You do realize that "future" was created by Q? All three time periods were created by Q: past, present, and future. We don't actually see any of the real timeline in the episode until the end.

    Actually, you're 100 percent correct. That's exactly what "fixed point" means in Doctor Who.
     
  4. Jackson_Roykirk

    Jackson_Roykirk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I present to you: Star Trek's Mirror Universe.

    Everyone in the Miiror Universe has a different upbringing and different life experiences, and every event has a different past history than the Prime Universe, but somehow everyone who matters still ends up serving on the Discovery (or Enterprise, or Deep Space Nine/Terok Nor, or wherever).

    Heck, in Mirror Mirror, we even had both versions of Kirk, McCoy, Scotty, and Uhara beaming up from the same planet at the exact same time on very similar missions of obtaining dilithium from the Halkans. It seems that the details of their lives were different from their counterparts, but the major point of serving on the Enterprise was the same (and evidently their need to go visit the Halkans in order to try to get dilithium).

    Frankly, I don't know why Star Trek's Mirror and Prime counterparts lives would be so different yet so similar (why their life details could be so different but lead them all to the same place), but we are told it is, so we just go with it because it's just a show and we should really just relax.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  5. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Captain Captain

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    Show me the goddamn picture RIGHT NOW. Link. LINK. LIIIIIIIIIINK.
     
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  6. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This makes sense as a Time Lord directive for not mucking up with those things, not as some universal law. So it is not so much that those things could not be changed, it is that they should not be changed. Or that's at least the only sensible interpretation for me. And as there are no Time Lords involved in Discovery, such 'Prime Directive' wouldn't apply.
     
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  7. Rainard Fox

    Rainard Fox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    You don't have to rely on my words but I re-watched these moments dozen times to be sure (it goes too fast). In the both visions after the shot Tyler had yelled and began to fall. Actually he didn't.
     
  8. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, Mirror Universe most certainly doesn't make any sense. It is one of those things they really should have let die after that one TOS episode.
     
  9. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Captain Captain

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    I always took it to mean that the physics of the Doctor Who universe literally makes it impossible to change a fixed point without fucking everything up. My assertion is backed-up by what happened in the timeline where River Song didn't "kill" the Doctor at Lake Silencio--everything happened at once.
     
  10. Rainard Fox

    Rainard Fox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hmmm, Teselecta could solve Pike's problem. :luvlove:
    - So who are you guys?
    - The ones who have some experience with the fixed points in time...
     
  11. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    No, probably not. As I said, I'm waiting for more information regarding the time crystals and Control. Time crystals seem to work on a very personal level, while Control is impacting the entire galaxy.

    I'm just saying I see similarities in the temporal mechanics, not that they are precisely, 1 to 1, identical.
     
  12. Yistaan

    Yistaan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, that's still certainly more responsibility than your average Starfleet Evil Admiral (TM) takes. ;)
     
  13. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Frankly, I am not willing to accept that the time crystals would have the ability to somehow 'timelock' events. That would be far too silly. I really hope that they don't go with that.
     
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  14. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Of course. Lying to a member of a religious order definitely doesn't qualify as one. (At least, not unless you're dealing with a theocracy, something the Klingon Empire isn't.)

    That's what the episode seems to be implying, yes. But it makes no particular logical sense, and it has disturbing metaphysical implications that impact the show's themes.
     
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  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I fail to see how it is silly, but that seems to be par for the course for these discussions.
    No! Not disturbing implications in a Star Trek show!? O_o

    ;)
     
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  16. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Naturally occurring mineral that has the ability to destine a certain (random?) event to happen doesn't seem silly to you?
     
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  17. Yistaan

    Yistaan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Another thing to keep in mind is that higher ranking officers can and will order subordinates to break promises to alien species. Data made a promise to aliens in TNG Clues, and Picard and the crew browbeat him into breaking it.
    PICARD: Well, Data, as you can see, we're back where it all started.
    DATA: We must leave immediately, sir.
    PICARD: Why?
    DATA: Any further delay would put us all at grave risk.
    PICARD: Why? What is the source of that risk? The energy field?
    DATA: I cannot say.
    PICARD: Data, you sound as if you're stuck in a feedback loop. You certainly can say. You have free will, you have a choice.
    DATA: My silence is not by choice, sir.
    PICARD: Not by choice? Are you somehow being controlled by that force? Did Geordi miss something when he examined you?
    DATA: Geordi's examination was exemplary.
    PICARD: Then why are you compelled to disobey my orders? How? During the missing day, were you contacted by Starfleet? Did they order you to conceal the truth from us?
    DATA: I cannot answer that. We must leave, sir.
    PICARD: This ship isn't going anywhere. Not until I get an answer. Now who gave you that order?

    Pike's promise to Tenavik won't hold water with Starfleet Command.
     
  18. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

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    In an infinite multiverse all possible paths and futures are already at hand.
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    I think it more locks an event for that person in that timeline. No, I don't find it silly. Again, it's on par with !, time travel, predestination paradoxes and other things that Trek has had.

    YMMV, obviously.
     
  20. Longinus

    Longinus Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    How? How does the crystal choose the event to be locked? How does it prevent anyone from altering it? How does this inanimate piece of rock have an ability to manipulate time in manner which would suggest both great intelligence as nigh unlimited power to affect what's happening?

    It is not. Those stories just worked with that sort of time travel logic. What is suggested here that in a situation where events otherwise could be altered this lump of rock somehow has an ability to prevent it.
     
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