Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Apr 4, 2019.


Hit it!

  1. 10 - It passes with flying colors.

  2. 9

  3. 8

  4. 7

  5. 6

  6. 5

  7. 4

  8. 3

  9. 2

  10. 1 - This is not the Trek I'm loyal to.

  1. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    Or part of my irritation with Q sometimes. He just comes across as a bit of an ass. And that is sometimes OK (like in AGT) and other instances it just falls flat on its face.
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  2. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Apr 19, 2014
    New England
    Well, shit. This has actually been a lot of fun. Should be interesting trying to fall asleep now!

  3. Trinity Jinglebrocks

    Trinity Jinglebrocks All hail Doctor 13 Premium Member

    I like Po she's awesome and Tilly's back yay

    Exploding consoles, and why the hell are there rocks inside the consoles when they explode or should we not think about that too much?
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  4. SantaEddie74

    SantaEddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 25, 2001
    At the North Pole with cooleddie74
    [*Pokes head in door of this thread*]

    I just wanted to say Good Luck. We're all counting on you.

    [*Shuts door*]
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  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    On the subject of time travel and future prediction here is a clip that I was thinking of. I love Nick's comments towards the end but it is a fun clip about how his character can see into his future but by doing so he changes it. It's fun but kind of illustrates one thought I have:
  6. Trinity Jinglebrocks

    Trinity Jinglebrocks All hail Doctor 13 Premium Member

    I love that movie but it has a bummer ending, didn't the girl get blown up?
  7. Yistaan

    Yistaan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 27, 2018
    Here's something that occurred to me--Tenavik claims that "every time" he saw people leave broken after trying to get a time crystal, presumably over the course of his time accelerated life.

    Tenavik has only been on Boreth a month or so. Age acceleration or not, have hordes of people been going to Boreth in the past month to get a time crystal??? :shrug:
  8. Rainard Fox

    Rainard Fox Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Mar 17, 2019
    Actually he said "They enter with conviction, always. They leave broken, always". He didn't said that he saw all of the challengers. It's enough that he knows about them.
  9. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Commodore Commodore

    Nov 3, 2009
    previously Mickmike
    Time clearly didn't move in a linear fashion for the timekeepers. He may have been witness to people attempting to to retrieve time crystals in the past or the future, maybe one day stretched as long as a hundred years. Or maybe part of his education as a timekeeper meant he used the time crystals to view every attempt to retrieve one.
  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

    Apr 11, 2014
    Not that I recall but it's been a while. I remember thinking the ending was quite clever.
  11. Trinity Jinglebrocks

    Trinity Jinglebrocks All hail Doctor 13 Premium Member

    I'll have to watch it again. I like the movie.

    BTW isn't it 31 ships about to face off against Discovery, and Section 31 ships, nice bit of symmetry there.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  12. The Mighty Monkey of Mim

    The Mighty Monkey of Mim Commodore Commodore

    Jul 22, 2001
    The Land of the West
    If Pike were going to relapse, I think it would have been here, when directly confronted with the sheer overwhelming horror of it, and with the glimpses he gets portraying his actions to come in the most futile light possible. I don't see what would conceivably change his mind, if not this. That seemed the very point of the scenario to me.

    I fully expect he will struggle with it going forward, but in the end, he is who and what he is: Captain Christopher Pike, Starfleet. His core beliefs and values are what they are. They've been tested before, and are tested again here. They led him to make the choice he made. The choices he makes henceforth will simply follow on naturally from it, from the nature of his character, and from themselves, one inexorably upon another. And it will all lead to much the same result, one way or another.

    I am with you that whatever happens will happen whether he tries to avoid it or not. I am certainly open to the possibility that he might be able to change certain aspects of how the event plays out, given his foresight. (Although, as you and others note, this is very limited in scope, and could potentially mislead him in the attempt.) Like Burnham's mother, he might be able to change the outcome for others, even if not for himself. Where he ends up may be fixed, but exactly how he gets there may not.

    That being said, to again echo others, I really don't get the emphatic distinction between "inspection tour of a cadet vessel" and "training exercise" you are making. Aren't training exercises the primary mission of training ships? Wouldn't that be exactly what he was there to inspect in the first place? (That's why Kirk is aboard the Enterprise in TWOK, too.)

    And I do very much like the idea that Pike would take a particularly active interest in monitoring safety conditions aboard cadet vessels, given what he knows. I'd presume he would take whatever measures he could to prevent such disasters wherever possible, even knowing that sooner or later one will strike him down. And it won't just be the cadets he saves in that room who benefit. So too would all those, both before and after, who learn by and from his example, no doubt stressing the importance of being prepared for what hazards one can, yet mindful of the fact that there will always be those one can't.

    Sure it has. "Time's Arrow" (TNG) is one example that comes to mind of Our Heroes™ not being able to escape what is fated. First Contact is an example of the Borg entrapping themselves in a paradox. Annorax in "Year Of Hell" (VGR) was able to alter all manner of outcomes, but the object of his singular obsession always eluded him. Sisko defied the will of the Prophets, yet what they foresaw for him still came true.

    The way it worked in the Kelvin films was, in Kurtzman and Orci's conception:

    So, on the one hand we’re free. On the other hand, these same rules of quantum mechanics tell us that the universes that exist, they exist because they are the most probable universe...and, therefore, the things that happened in The Original Series didn’t just happen because they happened, they happened because it’s actually what’s most probably going to happen...slightly predestined. On the other hand, our whole point was to give all of our characters free will again. They truly have free will. The universe is not written. The future is not written. And it’s not clear what’s going to happen. It’s going to [be] up to what the characters do. Be it us as the next writers or someone else who has a better idea, may these characters fulfill their destinies according to their own devices and their own free will.

    Pegg looked at it this way:

    With the Kelvin timeline, we are not entirely beholden to existing canon, this is an alternate reality and, as such is full of new and alternate possibilities...the explanation comes down to something very Star Treky; theoretical, quantum physics and the less than simple fact that time is not linear. Sure, we experience time as a contiguous series of cascading events but perception and reality aren’t always the same thing. Spock’s incursion from the Prime Universe created a multidimensional reality shift. The rift in space/time created an entirely new reality in all directions, top to bottom, from the Big Bang to the end of everything. As such this reality was, is and always will be subtly different from the Prime Universe...this means, and this is absolutely key, the Kelvin universe can evolve and change in ways that don’t necessarily have to follow the Prime Universe at any point in history, before or after the events of Star Trek ‘09...

    It's "like" whatever it's like based on how a given writer wants to write it in context of a given story.

    As the Okudas had already summarized way back in 1991, before most of the examples raised in discussion here had even been written yet:

    The question of whether or not the time continuum is ultimately fixed or mutable in the Star Trek universe has never been definitively addressed. Every time a terrible change occurs, our people have been pretty much able to restore the "proper" flow of history, suggesting that both the change and the restoration were "normal." Every time a change is not restored, we are left with the possibility that the change is simply what was "supposed" to have happened.

    If these suppositions are true, we may be left with the conclusion that very few of the items listed here are in fact truly alternate timelines. However, if time is truly changeable, each of the events here may have created a completely independent, parallel universe.

    On the other hand, if time is changeable, but parallel timelines cannot exist, we are faced with the possibility that the continuum may have been altered an infinite number of times, and that there is no way that we can know what the "original" timeline was like.

    It is the authors' opinion that time travel stories almost never stand up under close scrutiny. Questions such as those posed here ultimately become questions about the nature and mechanics of time travel, and therefore become questions about the rules of time travel in the
    Star Trek universe. One might suppose that those mechanics might vary with the specific time-travel method used in a particular story ("sling-shot" effect, temporal rift, Guardian of Forever, et cetera.)

    Those interested in further examination of the mechanics of time travel and its ramifications may enjoy the novel
    The Man Who Folded Himself by David Gerrold. Also highly recommended for the same reasons is the classic short story "All You Zombies" by Robert Heinlein.

    -Star Trek Chronology: The History Of The Future, pg. 159​

    But again, Pike's free will is what seals his fate, here. The free will he exercises when he overrides his own overpoweringly instinctual revulsion to what he foresaw, for the sake of others, and the sake of upholding his own sworn principles.

    Am I totally wrongheaded in imagining there might be some form of quantum entanglement in play? I seem to be the only one bringing it up...

    See for instance:

    That's what the Heisenberg compensators are for...;)

    And in a way, this parallels Pike. He experienced his own suffering, and waivered (and may again), but ultimately held (and will hold) firm in his convictions.

    I am truly sorry to hear that. I certainly don't think your insights as to what that feels like deserve to be discounted. Best wishes in your recovery. (And, to offer a personal insight of my own here—one Pike might well share in time, if not yet—let me assure you, if you be in any doubt, that so long as you live, recovery remains possible, even if your injuries cannot be healed.) Take care of yourself, and allow others to help you in the process. See you around the board.:)

    And fittingly, we know from "Tears Of The Prophets" (DS9) that Starfleet named a Medal of Valor after Pike, which Sisko was awarded for "personal acts of bravery" during the Dominion War.

    Another good example that comes to my mind is that of firefighters. They know every time they enter a burning building that this could be the one they don't walk out of. That doesn't dissuade them from doing their job with passion and dedication. Quite the opposite. As the saying goes, if you can't stand the heat...

    Pike may not have foreseen that particular ending for himself before now, but he must have long foreseen that any number of such grim fates potentially awaited him every single day of his Starfeet service. This incident shakes him to his core, as did losing his "only yeoman" (perhaps the real reason he objects to Colt, but not the other women on the bridge? a wound so painful he'd rather hurl sexist deflections from the depths of his id than acknowledge it in front of anyone but Boyce?) and those others on Rigel VII years earlier. But just as it was then, that core is resilient and deeply-seated enough within him to withstand the shaking.

    It was all of those things, in various aspects, at various points. Feeling a little cognitive dissonance, are we?

    I don't see the problem, personally.

    The one was conditional upon the other. That was specified to him at the outset, and reiterated by him at the conclusion. What he saw was meant "for [him] alone." Pike gave his word to abide by that. The consequences of breaking it could be great, or less so; Pike has no way of knowing, and neither do we. But either way, he still gave his word.

    Same lesson Burnham learned in "The Vulcan Hello"/"Battle At The Binary Stars" (DSC), too.

    What you say is true (at least in Riker's supposition), but at the same time, Geordi notes the contrast with prescribed practices, and Data the atypical circumstances:

    CRUSHER: You know, I was thinking about what the Captain told us all about the future, about how we all changed and drifted apart? Why would he want to tell us what's to come?
    LaFORGE: Sure goes against everything we've always heard about not polluting the timeline, doesn't it?
    DATA: I believe, however, this situation is unique. Since the anomaly did not occur, there have already been changes in the way this timeline is unfolding. The future we experience will undoubtedly be different from the one the Captain encountered.
    RIKER: Maybe that's why he told us. Knowing what happens in that future allows us to change things now, so that some things never happen.

    And again, "some things" is key. That not everything is unchangeable is not necessarily synonymous with everything being changeable.

    It seems to me that for the scenarios to be directly comparable, Q would have had to make it a part of the bargain that Picard had to accept his irumodic syndrome as inevitable and promise not to reveal his experience to anyone else. Since Q didn't, we'll never know what Picard would or wouldn't have done if he had.

    Q tells him as much in their final scene together, right before Picard wakes up to find that, to all appearances, the anomaly never happened and nobody else experienced any of it: "I was the one that got you into it. A directive from the Continuum. [...] We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons. And for one brief moment, you did."

    In "Tapestry" (TNG), Q was even more explicit about the fact that the scenario was only "real" for Picard, and not for anyone else—which is the sole reason he agreed to participate in the first place...

    PICARD: What is the point of creating this fantasy?
    Q: This is no fantasy, I assure you. It's all very real. You're twenty-one years old again, a brash young man, fresh out of the Academy.
    PICARD: [examining reflection] I certainly don't look it.
    Q: Well...to everyone else you do.
    PICARD: So, Q, I thought you told me that I was dead. Now, it seems that I'm alive.
    Q: Oh, you mortals are so obtuse. Why do you persist in believing that life and death are such static and rigid concepts? Why, I can take your life and give it back to you again with the snap of a finger.
    PICARD: Let's say for the moment that may be true. What is the purpose in bringing me here?
    Q: You said you regretted a great many things in your life. Well, here's a chance to change some of them.
    PICARD: Change them? Do you mean change the past? Q, even if you have been able to bring me back in time somehow, surely you must realize that any alteration in this timeline will have a profound impact on the future.
    Q: Please! Spare me your egotistical musings on your pivotal role in history. Nothing you do here will cause the Federation to collapse or galaxies to explode. To be blunt, you're not that important.
    PICARD: I won't do it. I won't alter history.
    Q: [knocks over game pieces in frustration] Bah! Very well! Since you attach so much importance to the continuity of time, I will give you my personal guarantee that nothing you do here will end up hurting anyone, or have an adverse affect on what you know of as history. The only thing at stake here is your life and your peace of mind. Now, whether you believe me or not, you are here. And you have a second chance. What you choose to do with it is entirely up to you...

  13. 1.21 Gigawatts

    1.21 Gigawatts Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jan 16, 2019
    I have a feeling that they will try to sweep under the rug the entire concept of time cops as if they never existed, at least in the formal and organized way that VOY presents them to be. ST has done that more than a few times with concepts that turned out to be too inconvenient or too dumb.
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  14. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

    Sep 24, 2017
    jippers on a beach somewhere
    There's always a possibility that temporal agents and temporal police have jurisdictions that would only make sense to people familiar with Star Trek style time travel. It's a cop out, but it would explain their lack of presence numerous times when the travel involved was just beyond their county line.
    lawman likes this.
  15. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

    May 22, 2001
    None Given
    Well in the 'real' timeline:
    - Bevely found the deformation that she said COULD lead to Irumodic Syndrome. (Which Picard had in the Q timeline)

    - The Romulan Empire now is no more and the Klingons probably did take a lot of their territory.

    - We won't see the 'Galaxy-X' version of the 1701-D as it was destroyed (In ST: Gen)

    - Geordi STILL could have poisoned Leah's husband so he could continue to stalk, and marry her and write his Novel about it. ;) [Yeah, okay...maybe his novel isn't about that, I stand by the rest of the comment though. ;)]

    - Beverly Crusher probably did get command of the U.S.S. Pasteur

    - If we're lucky Deanna Troi got killed so we don't have to suffer anymore of Marina Sirtis inability to act (if they were to do any TNG cast cameos of 'The Picard show'.)

    Yes, but RDM also admits they often CONFUSED the two scripts at times (IE they'd write a great scene for one based on the situation in the other and then go - "Damn, we can't use that...") - so for all we know perhaps the WANTED the Galaxy-X to exist in teh ST:Gen timeline ;)
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  16. SantaEddie74

    SantaEddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 25, 2001
    At the North Pole with cooleddie74
    I have to say I do like the theory that some changes in history are somehow shielded from the sensors of the temporal cops and because for some quantum reason the new timeline isn't noticed and thus no effort is made to correct it. The unique Red Matter- and black hole-related circumstances of Nero's and Spock's journeys back to the early-to-mid 23rd century might have somehow hidden the creation of the Kelvin Timeline or the timeline itself exists on a quantum plane undetectable and even unknown to temporal police.
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  17. Yistaan

    Yistaan Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 27, 2018
    That's more proof Q did create an actual timeline and not an illusion. However, it's clear Picard's memory of how exactly the Romulan Empire was destroyed was erased (as he did not tell the Romulans immediately upon AGT's end). It may well be Future Picard himself didn't remember why the Romulan Empire was gone due to irumodic syndrome.

    In fact, I would say the irumodic syndrome suffered by Future Picard was implanted by Q precisely so that Picard didn't immediately change the timeline. Giving how Picard did everything possible to avert that future, Q's logic would make sense. I'm guessing that, cruel as it sounds, the destruction of Romulus is a "fixed time" event (wow, we're in Dr. Who territory now) like Pike's accident, and even Q is not allowed to prevent it or face sanction by the Q continuum. Irumodic syndrome is a good way for Picard to be hazy about what his irumodic-afflicted future self remembered.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  18. XCV330

    XCV330 A Being of Pure Caffeine Premium Member

    Sep 24, 2017
    jippers on a beach somewhere

    Assuming there's infinite alternate worlds, then there isn't really an origination point for those worlds. They exist just like the one we are in, from big bang to the long sigh and what we'd perceive to be an origination point, or fork, is really more of a junction between the two.

    They may be parallel until that point until that intersection occurs, but then they may well branch away from each other. The Mirror universe and Prime seem particularly interesting in that regard as they seem more entwined than others with multiple incursions between each other.

    However changes to the timeline we know, Prime have been shown to occur and have consequences to that timeline, otherwise the answer would be "well this is one fucked timeline. back to our own we go" or at least would have people trying desperately to try to map out all possible multiverses for the optimal ( anyone who has finished season 2 of O.A... click here , you know why)

    On the other hand Star Trek has shown the idea of tangential universes that seemingly run like loops and cease to exist when whatever causes them is no longer present. The Donnie Darko effect. Time cops havent been shown to rush in and end them. Why should they care?

    All this points to the idea that a time cop could police his own timeline where it involved matters that could alter his or her own beat without being important enough to cause one of those timeline intersections, but their jurisdiction ends there. They can't be everywhere. They're not multiversal cops.
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  19. SantaEddie74

    SantaEddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Apr 25, 2001
    At the North Pole with cooleddie74
    And like a county cop who can't cross into city jurisdiction to stop a crime they didn't witness to begin with, why wouldn't they just remain in their squad car and relax? Not their jurisdiction.
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  20. lawman

    lawman Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Jul 20, 2007
    Feels like you're moving the goalposts here!

    There are two possibilities. On the one hand, it could be (as you wrote) "...an elaborate fantasy manufactured by Q. ... There's no actual time travel or timeline manipulation involved here. ... There's never, at any time, any risk that the 'possible future' presented will come to pass." In that case, it's basically the equivalent of a more-sophisticated holodeck simulation.

    On the other hand, if there is timeline manipulation going on, then it could come to pass, which is precisely what the word "possible" means.

    Of course there are myriad possible futures. Not all of them are equally probable, but they're all possible, until any given one collapses from a quantum probability state into reality. Star Trek does not take place in a deterministic universe; the future is never fixed. (Indeed, even the past can be changed.)

    That doesn't make it "meaningless" or "bullshit." On the contrary, that's where the drama comes from, because human agency matters. If the future were predetermined, and hence could be known with certainty, that's what would make things meaningless.

    (And that's the thorny issue with the Pike storyline here. The implication that the Trek universe can contain anything resembling a fixed "fate" is disturbing. As I noted upthread, we accept it as fixed, only because we've seen it in "The Menagerie." But we're not actually part of that universe; we have a privileged viewpoint. There's no reason Pike or anyone around him should accept it as fixed.)
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