Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

Many of them have been trained by watching Berman era Trek for years that if even actual science doesn't sound "sciency" enough, its not worthy of being included in their chroniton-rich Star Trek diet.

 

Well, we've seen what messing with time crystals does to people. First Harry Mudd, then Gabriell Burnham and now Christopher Pike. I can buy their reasoning why the most people leave them well enough alone and should if they can possibly avoid it.

 

Grab a time crystal and join us an hour ago. We can wait. or maybe not. Just look how I turned out.

 

Harry Mudd is probably the textbook example of someone who gets away with practically all of his criminal activity.

 

I don't think that's how he would look at it.

 

Not surprising considering how he sees Stella and what she's actually like.

 

We now know what an episode of Voyager written by Dr. Seuss would sound like.

 

Just curious if you also hate the term given to its real-life counterpart (even though, yes, I know they are different). I've said this in another thread, while I don't really like the term either, I'll give it a pass this time because there are real things called that.

 

Tell that to Norman.

 

Star Trek has never been like that. Now of course, if Pike doesn't have the accident, the events of the Menagerie never happen, and that affects TOS canon. It would change the timeline and defeat the purpose of Discovery taking place in the Prime Universe, though Pike's accident is a good 10 years away.

He could stay with the cadets and not have the accident.

So are you saying Kirk is smart and Pike is stupid? Because not to take precautions is pretty stupid. Hell, he could do everything the same and wear a radiation suit.

When I say avoid, I don't mean not show up. I mean take precautions to prevent the explosion that caused the accident. Have a gazillion safety checks. Wear radiation suits. It's noble to give your life to save the lives of others, but if you can save those lives without hurting yourself, I think that's the better path.

If he was harmed quite a bit, then he wouldn't have been capable of saving those kids.

This is something the episode didn't make clear. Why? Let's say Pike does everything exactly the same--takes the time crystals. Now we are 10 years later. Why not take precautions to change his fate? It made absolutely no sense that his fate is sealed if he takes the crystals. What changes if he takes them or not? Why can he change his fate if he leaves the crystals behind and not change them if he takes them--unless taking them erases his vision? And there's no evidence his vision was erased.

But again, he takes the crystal and defeats Control. Now it's all good. He goes back to Enterprise for a few more years, and gives up command to Kirk. So he still knows that in his future, he will be in that room with those cadets. However, what stops him from making sure that training exercise doesn't go wrong?

It's almost as if Star Trek is saying fate is sealed, and that's that. It takes away free will.

Commodore Decker didn't have to die. If he had knowledge that shoving a Constitution class vessel into the Doomsday Machine would work, he wouldn't have piloted the shuttle into it. The Doomsday Machine would still be destroyed, but a life wouldn't have been needlessly lost. Pike is kind of in that position.

 

Yes.

 

Accidents are "very unlikely" as well. In any event we do not actually know much about Pike's impending unfortunate event. We do know if a future writer of Star Trek were to add Section 31 into that scenario one could not claim it violated canon.

 

And even if he does so, and takes all the precautions in the world, and it still happens, then what? Even the most highly trained of individuals can still suffer accidents.

 

I think the way Pike keeps things to himself and doesn't tell anyone is illogical and jarring. Look immediately how Riker and La Forge handle things in TNG. It made TNG feel more like a family--

DATA: In relative terms, perhaps not. Nevertheless, it seems clear that my life is to end in the late nineteenth century.
RIKER: Not if we can help it.
DATA: There is no way anyone can prevent it, sir. At some future date, I will be transported back to nineteenth century Earth, where I will die. It has occurred. It will occur.

LAFORGE: So, do you want to talk about it?
DATA: Are you referring to the foreknowledge of my death?
LAFORGE: Yeah.
DATA: I have no particular desire to discuss the matter. Do you need to talk about it?
LAFORGE: Yeah.
DATA: Why?
LAFORGE: Data, this has got to bother you a little.

To put it bluntly, Pike is acting like a non-emotional android Data, not like a human being who would do everything possible to prevent the accident after getting the crystal.

 

"Never been like that" is past tense. The whole "time crystal" thing feels more Doctor Who than Star Trek to me, but there you go. It's "never been like that" until it is.

 

To me it strikes me as a man who has accepted this as his fate, that it will come about because of the man that he is, not trying to be something he is not.

To put it bluntly, he sees a possible consequence and deems it acceptable and will not change. Stubborn, perhaps, but very human.

 

Yup, these Time Crystals have a curse...sorry, Temporal...spanking....field....thing, oh fuck it, who knows.

All we know is that anyone who takes one, even with the best of all intentions, no matter how selfless, is punished for taking it.

For, reasons?

 

Not at all. Captain Pike is behaving like a true hero! "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few or the one" and all that. His future terrified him as it was very much worse than death. Sorry, but your statement strikes me as nonsensical.

 

Perhaps it is simply like knowing the position of an electron. You can either know its path or its location, but not both. To observe one is to change the other.

 

Because what might happen is that he prepares and dresses (in a radiation suit) for training missions. A (very) similar accident happens which he believes is what he saw. He goes on normally and the actual accident happens.