Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Vger23]

Well, no. The only difference is the temporal 'location' of the observer. From the perspective of the Enterprise-C crew, the reality they visited was 'a possible future' in the same way than the future Q showed to Picard in AGT was. Doesn't mean either of them wasn't 'real'.

Not at all. The future the Enterprise-C visited was created by a very specific thing not happening. Thats the entire point of the episode. The ship got swept into a time displacement vortex and wasn't there to fill its role. Therefore, an alternate timeline was created in that moment. Just like Neto traveling to th 2250s via Red Matter Black Hole. Just like McCoy saving Edith Keeler.

The stuff Picard experiences via Q's screwing around is just some random extrapolation of one of any infinite amount of possibilities. By definition, that makes it meaningless. It's one of any infinite number of outcomes that may or may not happen

 

[Delta Vega]

Spock could indeed place his hand on a depressed Pike's head and say "Forget"
And he would of course
But forget as he may, he cannot escape his fate, because he had to make the sacrifice to get the crystal, that was the price
We can bang on about possible futures and alternative timelines, but Pike gets disabled at an unspecified point in HIS future
Its set in stone, its set in linear time
He's doomed
Plus, its canon and that's it

 

[Vger23]

You mean in the same way than the events in the Kelvin timeline do not affect the 'present' of the prime timeline?

Does the Kelvin timeline disappear/ cease to have ever existed if someone somehow prevents Nero from traveling through the Black Hole?

Does the Klingon War alternate timeline cease to exist when the Enterprise C goes back to the battle 2 decades previously?

It starts to mess with your idea of what "real" is....! Interesting stuff.

 

[Longinus]

Does the Kelvin timeline disappear/ cease to have ever existed if someone somehow prevents Nero from traveling through the Black Hole?

Does the Klingon War alternate timeline cease to exist when the Enterprise C goes back to the battle 2 decades previously?

It starts to mess with your idea of what "real" is....! Interesting stuff.

Right. I think now we are at least nearing the same page. I think alternate timelines are 'real' at least when they were shown to us. All the timelines shown in 'Parallels' were real too. Perhaps the future Picard saw in AGT would have happened, except he gained information from that future, and even told that information to others. Perhaps the existence of that information and people acting differently becuae of it butterflied that future out of existence (or split the time line under Kelvin logic.) Ultimately I really don't think it matters whether people physically time travel or whether merely information 'timetravels', as was the case in the episode this thread is actually about!

 

[eschaton]

If they're going with a Pike spinoff, which all hints seem to point to, I damn well hope Pike doesn't forget, because it makes him a much more interesting character if he not only has a known expiration date, but is keenly aware of it himself.

 

[Rainard Fox]

Besides, how would telling the vision in a report harm things? Pike has the time crystal. Is it going to magically disappear if he files a report?

No, but...
L'Rel: What did the monks ask in return?
Pike: What I experienced is for me alone. That's a promise that I made to your son.
Pike have to keep a promise. It was a part of the deal.
I wonder that nobody paid attention.

 

[thribs]

Does the Kelvin timeline disappear/ cease to have ever existed if someone somehow prevents Nero from traveling through the Black Hole?

Does the Klingon War alternate timeline cease to exist when the Enterprise C goes back to the battle 2 decades previously?

It starts to mess with your idea of what "real" is....! Interesting stuff.

That’s what makes different dimensions.

 

[cooleddie74]

The fact that the 29th-31st century Federation temporal cops didn't go back and prevent Nero from ever entering the Red Matter black hole and creating a new timeline possibly means that this is a temporal events sequence that's been somehow shielded from the temporal sensors of men like Captain Braxton and Daniels. That, or they DID fix the timeline from their own perspective but once set in motion the Kelvin Timeline continued. But if they stopped it from happening then why isn't the...

I've gone crosseyed.

 

[lawman]

Look, I don't have a PhD in temporal mechanics. But, something either IS the future or it is NOT. The minute you start throwing the words "possible" or "alternate" in the mix, you can substitute it for "bullshit"

Sounds like you believe in predestination?

The future the Enterprise-C visited was created by a very specific thing not happening. Thats the entire point of the episode.

Yes. And, so? Every possible future is the causal result of very specific past events. The only difference in these instances is that we knew what the past events were.

The stuff Picard experiences via Q's screwing around is just some random extrapolation of one of any infinite amount of possibilities. By definition, that makes it meaningless. It's one of any infinite number of outcomes that may or may not happen

That's literally exactly the same thing. The fact that the specific chain of events remains unknown doesn't make it "meaningless."

 

[T'Bonz]

That is perfect..... But then does the terrible thing have to happen, or will that upset the purists?

Yep. It has to happen. And since Spock would know, he would pre-plan the trip to Talos IV well ahead of time, working out whatever issues there might be to make it happen. Perfect. Canon preserved, Pike's sanity preserved.

* *

What if it's just that once you leave Boreth, the memory begins to fade and is eventually forgotten?

That works too.

Or perhaps one has to be in close approximate distance of the time crystal to retain the memory?

Then I would think that it should have faded by now.

I guess we'll see if they do anything at all. But I honestly can't see Pike living with this foreknowledge.

 

[Vger23]

Sounds like you believe in predestination?


Yes. And, so? Every possible future is the causal result of very specific past events. The only difference in these instances is that we knew what the past events were.


That's literally exactly the same thing. The fact that the specific chain of events remains unknown doesn't make it "meaningless."

It's not literally the exact same thing. Neither literally, nor exact, in fact, based on any definition of the words.

It does make it meaningless if it's created my a meddlesome omnipotent entity to toy with his favorite human plaything. And it CERTAINLY is meaningless if the episode clearly demonstrates that everything outside the TNG S7 timeframe is a bogus construct based on the obvious and indisputable fact that the "past" timeframe that Picard experiences has no bearing on the "present" and therefore the present has absolutely no connection to the "possible future" Picard experiences. That's the rule the episode establishes for itself. I didn't make it up. It's right there on the tv screen.

It's an elaborate fantasy manufactured by Q. It's no different than the fantasy he created in "Tapestry" or in "Encounter at Farpoint." There's no actual time travel or timeline manipulation involved here. It's set up to put Picard through the paces and teach him the Q Lesson of the Week. Hell, its about the same as saying Picard actually went to Sherwood Forrest in "Qpid." The dude creates these bullshit realities all the time. It's kind of his thing, actually.

It's been shown again and again that this is how operates. AGT is no different. It's just another version of Q creating an elaborate scenario to test/teach Picard. There's never, at any time, any risk that the "possible future" presented will come to pass. It has about the same validity and chance of coming true as Riker waking up in "Future Imperfect" for real. It's just a different level and type of illusion.

 

[Yistaan]

the episode clearly demonstrates that everything outside the TNG S7 timeframe is a bogus construct based on the obvious and indisputable fact that the "past" Picard experiences has no bearing on the "present" and therefore the present has absolutely no connection to the "possible future" Picard experiences. That's the rule the episode establishes for itself. I didn't make it up. It's right there on the tv screen.

It's been shown again and again that this is how operates. AGT is no different. It's just another version of Q creating an elaborate scenario to test/teach Picard. There's never, at any time, any risk that the "possible future" presented will come to pass. It has about the same validity and chance of coming true as Riker waking up in "Future Imperfect". It's just a different level and type of illusion.

Q has said time and time again that it's arrogant of humans to try to assume they know how they operate (Picard is really sure the trial of humanity is over, etc.) Yes, technically Picard was lucky this time, but honestly until a thorough study of the Q is done it's really dangerous to assume anything. Human rules are not Q rules. The past Q timeline and present Q timeline didn't affect the future, but to assume that the future timeline is also an illusion is to base the logic on human reasoning, not Q reasoning which can be anything at their whim.

No offense, I feel like Tyler now telling you (Pike) that we can't make any assumptions about how Q (the Red Angel) operates just because it was beneficial a handful of times. I guess now you'll order me to the brig and back to Section 31.

 

[Harpsichord]

There's never, at any time, any risk that the "possible future" presented will come to pass. It has about the same validity and chance of coming true as Riker waking up in "Future Imperfect". It's just a different level and type of illusion.

I think you're selling Q a little short here. The advanced memory scanner and holotech in "Future Imperfect" of course has no chance of creating the future presented, but Q could and no one would even know he did it unless he wanted them to.

 

[Vger23]

That’s what makes different dimensions.

V'Ger doesn't believe in other dimensions. Hence my screen name.

 

[Vger23]

I think you're selling Q a little short here. The advanced memory scanner and holotech in "Future Imperfect" of course has no chance of creating the future presented, but Q could and no one would even know he did it unless he wanted them to.

Yeah, I think you miss my point. Q changing the future because he's an omnipotent dick and Q presenting a possible future that will occur on its own naturally are actually two quite different things.

 

[Yistaan]

Yeah, I think you miss my point. Q changing the future because he's an omnipotent dick and Q presenting a possible future that will occur on its own naturally are actually two quite different things.

I think my point is that we can't know which Q is doing at any given time unless he outright says so. Which, I'll check All Good Things again, he didn't.

And even if he says so, Q lies. We don't know if he created an illusion or it was an actual timeline but Generations showed it can be altered without damage beyond all doubt (the destuction of the Enterprise D). So it was an illusion.

But no evidence Picard had at the time of AGT could make that conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course there is conjectural evidence.

 

[lawman]

It's an elaborate fantasy manufactured by Q. ... There's no actual time travel or timeline manipulation involved here. ... There's never, at any time, any risk that the "possible future" presented will come to pass.

Well, okay... if we stipulate that that's what we're dealing with, then I'd agree that it's meaningless. But in that case it's not actually a "possible future," which is the concept you were initially criticizing.

 

[Vger23]

Q has said time and time again that it's arrogant of humans to try to assume they know how they operate (Picard is really sure the trial of humanity is over, etc.) Yes, technically Picard was lucky this time, but honestly until a thorough study of the Q is done it's really dangerous to assume anything. Human rules are not Q rules. The past Q timeline and present Q timeline didn't affect the future, but to assume that the future timeline is also an illusion is to base the logic on human reasoning, not Q reasoning which can be anything at their whim.

No offense, I feel like Tyler now telling you (Pike) that we can't make any assumptions about how Q (the Red Angel) operates just because it was beneficial a handful of times. I guess now you'll order me to the brig and back to Section 31.

Well, it's a great point, isn't it?

Because we know Q's "realities" he creates for Picard on these numerous occasions aren't mere illusions. In fact, that is firmly established in "Encounter at Farpoint" when they say "this is very real"

I think it's part of the mystery of how Q operates that we really can't understand. All part of the fun.

 

[Vger23]

Well, okay... if we stipulate that that's what we're dealing with, then I'd agree that it's meaningless. But in that case it's not actually a "possible future," which is the concept you were initially criticizing.

Well sure it is. That was actually my point. There are infinite "possible futures". It's both a truth and simultaneously what makes the entire concept meaningless. Like everything with time, it's a bit of a paradox, no?

All I'm saying is that the very concept of a "possible future" is laughable because it's virtual bullshit. Anything is a "possible future." I suppose there Is some "possible future" where I have daily sexual escapades with Sasha Gray too.

 

[Vger23]

I think my point is that we can't know which Q is doing at any given time unless he outright says so. Which, I'll check All Good Things again, he didn't.

And even if he says so, Q lies. We don't know if he created an illusion or it was an actual timeline but Generations showed it can be altered without damage beyond all doubt (the destuction of the Enterprise D). So it was an illusion.

But no evidence Picard had at the time of AGT could make that conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. Of course there is conjectural evidence.

Well, of course we don't know. That's part of what sustains the drama. If there's even a fraction of a doubt that it might be "real" it has to be taken seriously.

You also have to consider that the REAL issue is Q's establishment of the anti-time rift. All that matters (bizarre "illusions" beyond our understanding not withstanding) is that he follows through with the consequences if Picard fails the test.

That's where the drama and tension come from.

Not from any belief that the future timeline Q presents has any basis in reality.