Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x10 - "The Red Angel"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Mar 21, 2019.

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  1. 10 - Leaps and bounds ahead of anything Trek has done before.

    10.8%
  2. 9

    23.7%
  3. 8

    28.4%
  4. 7

    15.1%
  5. 6

    8.6%
  6. 5

    3.4%
  7. 4

    3.4%
  8. 3

    2.2%
  9. 2

    0.9%
  10. 1 - Oh boy, what a mess.

    3.4%
  1. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  2. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    "I went to the academy with Jim Kirk. That's not the man I remember." - Commander Finnegan.
     
  3. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

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    Main thoughts:
    Okay, first of all let me say this: I really do think this show has found the perfect Trek formula this season. Having long, serialized character arcs that are influenced by, but independant from the plot of the week. And I think the plot mixture of having an over-arching season long arc, built up from the first episode, then for the most part of the season more episodic tales more loosely connected to the main arc, and then ramping it up in the end to full serialized storytelling fits perfectly for a Star Trek show. And I genuinely love that the main arc is a mystery story - that gives us that good, warm feeling of "exploration" that a Trek show needs.

    That being said: I think this episode made it undeniable clear that this season's main arc is fundamentally broken. As much as I still crave to see what Bryan Fuller originally envisioned for the series - it seems obvious that this season as well has completely changed course with the change of the showrunners. Gone is pretty much everything resembling the "faith vs. science" theme that was advertised.

    But the bigger problem is - none of the main arc makes any sense anymore. The hypothethis that the red angel is connected to Burnham is completely unconvincing, since it already appeared during WWII to save some humans, and to Spock alone. But the main issue is that a majority of plot-twists feel like complete ass-pulls, because nothing is set up or resolved - literally every idea is both introduced and executed immediately. It doesn't help that this show has absolutely no rules for time-travel - remember, this is supposed to be in sync with the Kelvin movies, where the "grandfather paradox" doesn't exist, because time-travel creates alternate timelines. And I do hate the return of the magic timeballs.

    But the episode never really gets over it's main issue: that it's whole set-up is completely unbelievable: They are in a war for life itself with an evil A.I. from the future. But they get protection from another time-traveler. Why do they so willy-nilly set up to completely disable said time-traveler, and even risk his life and a paradoxon to do so? They really set up an intricate plan to shoot themselves in the foot. And then shot themselves in the foot. Next episode: Does Burnham has to get into the suit? How do they proceed without a foot?

    The bright side is: The writers really manage to introduce some good ideas, and their reasoning even works when you don't think about it. SO overall, I still look forward to the conclusion of this arc, and I think it will be an actually pretty interesting conndrum, told in an entertaining way. Just - we have to prepare ourselves for the resolution to not make actually a lot of sense, and it won't actually fit what we've been told so far, because it's been retroactively glued on top of what the fired screenwriters wanted to do originally. Again.

    What I liked:
    • I actually really enjoyed Leland as the shady good badguy. Never thought he'd be one of my favourite recurring characters of this show
    • As such - I still think it was a mistake to make him resposible for Burnham's family tragedy. But god damn, that scene between the two was amazing, and I really love that he was forthcoming about it for himself. He's really not evil for evil's sake. He's just wrong. I like that. The leather-clothed shady guy who's constantly talking about how shady he is is actually a pretty nuanced character
    • Spock worked a bit better as Spock this episode. There is still something widely off about Peck's line-delivery and acting (not bad, just not Spock), but IMO his lines and actions, and all of it with a small smirk, actually kinda' worked.
    • I continue to like the way the Stamets-Culbert-relationship develops. I'm still not super into it, and it still feels like a fix against the "kill your gays" trope of season 1. But the do so in such a genuine way, and honest spirit, it might be one of the best "actor-brought-back-to-life"-stories in Trek
    • Soooo. Tyler worked AGAIN for the season's big main baddie, without him knowing it? Man this guy can't catch a break:guffaw:
    • Last episode, I thought it was Section 31's computer that annhilated all life. But having it be "a future A.I." (who's identity we don't know yet), which just took over Control (and Airam) is a much more interesting concept
    • The big TWIST!!!!-Ending was neat
    What I didn't like:
    • The funeral at the beginning felt completely shallow. Do we pretend Airam was more than a disposable extra the entire series until now? Not even real-Georgiou got such a big good-bye, not even talking about Culbert, Landry, and blue-shirt-splattered-on-asteroids.
    • Section 31 has time-travel now???? 20 years before Kirk? Are they fucking kidding?
    • Also: Magic time-balls on the black market? This show handles it's MacGuffins extremely uncareful. On a mere television show I'm willing to let a lot more slide. But we're approaching dangerous "super-blood and magic transport beaming"-levels of breaking internal universe-rules here
    • Georgiou/Stamets/Culbert's "You are gay. My version of you was bisexual. And we did a lot of the sex. And with you too"-scene was probably the most immature scene I have ever seen on Star Trek. Ever. And Janeway once lizard-fucked Tom Paris.
    • Also: Can MU-Georgiou just fuck off this show for good? She's now completely the caring mother-figure for Michael, who just casually drops fascist propaganda, promotes genocide and is a space-cannibal. But neither the writers nor the characters care about ANY of that. Everybody just treats her like the Georgiou-mentor character the writer think she is. No one cares they are now fully celebrating their local fascist as "the cool girl" and did-I-mention-how-much-more-effective-fascism-is?-you-really-should-try-it-out-people!....
    FInal Grade
    6/10. Like last week. Feels like mostly exposition, as if that was intended as the first half of a single episode, and then needed padding to be the first half of a two-parter. Together with last week the weakest episodes of the season so far. The show is still overwhelmingly good. But the main story-arc isn't. And every episode dealing with more details of it suffered for it thus far.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
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  4. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    "Who Killed Captain Kirk?"
     
  5. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    Some things I ask myself:

    Do the events that occur in linear time have to occur in the same linear time-line of the the time traveler, since they are traveling through time both forward and back yesterday could be tomorrow and next tuesday the day after that for a time traveler?

    How long did it take for the time traveler to get the hang of the technology? What are its limitations?

    Is there only one time traveler or multiple time travelers wearing the suit at different points from when it was invented? Mom first, Michael Second, someone else third etc.

    Do all methods of time travel create new timelines or does the effect vary depending on which kind of time travel tech or method one uses?
     
  6. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    About 90% of anything that had to do with Q was significantly more immature than that particular scene, which was merely an pg discussion about sex between partners in different universes.

    Now compare that to when Q wanted Janeway to have his baby...
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    :guffaw:


    Oh, wait, you're serious?
     
  8. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    IMO, pretty much everything under the What I didn't like is :guffaw:
     
  9. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    Threatening is one thing. Killing indiscriminately and in high volume is way different makes for a different type of character. Redefining the character in a TOS prequel series rewrites TOS. I am not a fan of that in either principle or practice. This is why I truly wished they would have gone completely original with Discovery.

    Definitive? No. Though I like Star Trek Discovery it is far from perfect and this is one area I believe it falls down badly. They needlessly retconned Harry Mudd and altered how the future will perceive two TOS episodes as a result. That is effectively rewriting them. Carmel was first to define Mudd and that was in accordance with how the original creators authored him. It's having Greedo shoot first all over again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
  10. Doc Mugatu

    Doc Mugatu Captain Captain

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    More like "Harcourt Fenton Mudd, Double naught Agent of Section-31" :lol:

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    No, because Lucas was rewriting a character in the *same freaking movie* he originally appeared in to retroactively soften him and undermine his character arc. In the exact same movie he reedited to make more appealing to 3 year olds.

    Carmel's Harry Mudd has no character arc in his episodes. He's the same vaudvillian comedy villain in both. What Rains interpretation does is add depth and fills in backstory much as Craig's version of Bond has to the character of 007.

    And going the 'original authors' route deny's many peoples view that Christopher Reeves and Kevin Conroy portrayed the definitive performances of Superman and Batman, even though their particular interpretations are by no means devoted tp the exact characterization as the original author's intended or even how the original actors who portrayed the characters played them in live action.
     
  12. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    One can only wish for an ending to this season of Trek that is as perfect as the ending of Super was for its narrative.
     
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  13. Cyanide Muffin

    Cyanide Muffin All hail Doctor 13 Premium Member

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    Star Trek Discovery ends with a looooooooooong camera pullack to reveal a soundstage and they walk off "the ship" and we see they're on some giant space station.
     
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  14. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    By deliberately riffing off batman's prime influence, The Spider, Master of Men on his Batsleeves, such as leaving his 'mark' on the foreheads of his victims that wouldn't be revisited again until Batman V Superman?
     
  15. Alan Roi

    Alan Roi Fleet Captain Red Shirt

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    My money is on that halfbreed first officer of his.
     
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  16. NewHeavensNewEarth

    NewHeavensNewEarth Captain Captain

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    It wouldn't be Star Trek if there wasn't a lot of time travel going on. Including paradoxes. If it hadn't happened through the Red Angel, it would've come about through Discovery itself - which has been established to be able to travel through time as well as space. Some people were already complaining that time travel hadn't been explored enough for a ship that could do it as one of its essential functions.

    I still think there's merit to the idea of exploring time in the way that starships explore space, especially if other species WILL do it for themselves. (Sorry, Temporal Accords.) Most likely, S31 started the temporal race, the Klingons got wind of it, allowed their own time tech to be stolen so they could trace it to S31's project, then attacked.

    As for Control, that's probably Moriarty, escaped after being innocently uploaded from his storage device after the salvage operation when Enterprise-D crashed. :cool:
     
  17. nutshell

    nutshell Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    For those who didn’t like the funeral scene because Airiam was a minor character, don’t you think that scene was actually to show us that her crew and friends are hurting? I don’t think we were meant to feel a swell of emotion for Airiam herself, but for this crew that is finally becoming a “family.”
     
  18. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Verified Disney Princess Moderator

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    A lot of that seems to be focused on the bridge crew being pretty close, something that's been implied a bit with Tilly being friends with most of them. The scene with the new officer taking Airiam's spot really showed that.
     
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  19. CorporalClegg

    CorporalClegg Admiral Admiral

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    Intent and effectiveness are not the same thing.
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Kang, now with ridges Premium Member

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    Dude has priors and anger issues.