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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x07 - "Light and Shadows"

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Well, that's just the nature of series fiction. Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys are just high school kids and yet somehow they've stumbled into hundreds of mysteries in their teen years alone. Aside from the occasional "Day in the Life" type episode, interesting and exciting things are supposed to happen to the protagonists, and the longer a series, the more interesting and exciting events (often with a personal connection) will happen to them, never mind the odds of one person having so many murdered relatives, long-lost relatives, etc.

I gather that Meredith on GRAY'S ANATOMY is now up to at least three long-lost sisters, which is what happens when a show runs for fifteen years . . . :)
had to gOOgle her - and i swear i never heard of her (not even in passing)
 
IMO, its more a case of "comforting" vs. "challenging."

I agree with this, at least from my perspective. There are those that seem to want to return to the familiar, to feel the nostalgia that they may have felt at one time towards a particular series. For them, watching Discovery might be a jarring experience if it doesn't line up with what they remember or expect.

I prefer the latter, with a smidgen of the former. But YMMV.

I actually really loved both the Bajoran and Cardassian stories on DS9. At least up until the Dukhat and Winn unholy alliance. :ack::barf:
 
I agree with this, at least from my perspective. There are those that seem to want to return to the familiar, to feel the nostalgia that they may have felt at one time towards a particular series. For them, watching Discovery might be a jarring experience if it doesn't line up with what they remember or expect.

I prefer the latter, with a smidgen of the former. But YMMV.

I actually really loved both the Bajoran and Cardassian stories on DS9. At least up until the Dukhat and Winn unholy alliance. :ack::barf:
yes and no - back in the day, i always thought (watching any tng show) 'why didn't they shoot kirk'?


... i came over it (dukhat-winn stuff was ...)
 
Seemed the Bajoran plotlines became an after thought once the Dominion was introduced. In the last season is was like the writers suddenly remembered they need to resolve a few things with Bajor.
i really wanted they came up with anything else to do it
 
What an interesting episode this week!

GREAT
* Vulcan in the rain is visually satisfying.
* Pike throwing more shade at Section 31 only makes me love him more.
* "My chair outweighs your badge."
* Tilly. ♥ Tilly Tilly Tilly Tilly.
* Along those lines, watching Tilly and Stamets work together again just feels right.
* Watching young Spock warm up to Michael, their little moments together as children, it was very bittersweet.
* I love Amanda's strength, and that she is the mother of both her children, and loves them dearly.
* Sarek having a vulnerable moment, as short as it was, speaks well of him.
* Talos IV! Oh wow, this one boosts the episode one whole point just for this.

FAIR
* Section 31 has less screen time, but they bring it down just a bit for me this episode.

MEH
* Please, to all the goddesses that ever were, no temporal cold war. Please no.


General thoughts: This was an enjoyable episode that did some nice filling in of the plot, gave us a dollop of characterization that I believe was much needed, and touched on some major themes that Star Trek has always sought to push forward: particularly its clarity of conviction. Anson Mount's Pike is such an appealing, well rounded character, that if there were a spinoff with him as Pike, I would sign on at this point. He's just great, and he works so well with everyone in the cast. This episode gets a Genuine 8. Nicely done!
 
I myself love the arc from "In the Hands of the Prophets" to "The Siege." I generally love the stuff with prophets, orbs, vedeks, prylars, Winn's narcissism, and her power grabs.

I wonder if the show just didn't have the budget to do Bajor properly, with all the sets and location shooting it would require.
 
Yeah, too bad they didn't do it like TNG - which never...oh, wait:
Remeber the connection between Picard and the Ferengi Damon Bok in TNG S1 - "The Battle" tyhe 9th episode aired?

From TNG S1 - "The Last Outpost":

And just three episodes later (From TNG S1 - "The Battle"):

We have Picard DIRECTLY tied to a particular Ferengi Daemon. Hell, he even returned to 'menace' Picard is TNG S7 - "Bloodlines" where Bok makes Picard believe he has a son (that Bok intends to kill) - and SOMEHOW Bok got command of a Ferengi ship but the ONLY reason his plan falls apart is that the Ferengi onboard somehow didn't know his criminal history; and they take Picard's word for what happened...
^^^
talk about 'bad fan fiction'... ;)

Apparently you completely missed the point about the entirety of this discussion that had taken place:

The Picard-/Daimon Bok-relationship has a very, very obvious reason why it resurfaces: Picard had a chance encounter where he destroyed a Ferengi vessel. Now, Daimon Bok specifically seeks out Picard to get revenge. OF COURSE they are going to meet again! That's the entirety of what this plot line is about. And it's completely logical as well.

This is completely the opposite of Picard being the foster-brother of Kirk, the main love interest of both the Romulan Empress and the Romulan resistance leader, and Daimon Bok also being the one responsible to have killed Picards parents in the past before their current meet-up and having a personal history with Picards current boss.

It's the difference of a connection having an in-story logic, and being completely arbitrary, only to name-drop popular events and famous characters or organizations from the past. Also notice how the Ferengi aren't a well-known enemy re-used from TOS but a completely new one?
 
This was not nearly as good as the last few. Not terrible, but it was mostly an episode that moved the pieces around the board and felt largely unmotivated in doing so. We got set-up for later revelations and that was about it. 8/10 for being decent, but nothing special. Might have gone lower, but the Vulcan sets and costume design were exceptional.

This was a bridging episode: how well this episode sits in the season depends entirely on where things go from here.

The Tyler/Pike plot was the weakest in the episode. Tyler's armchair psychoanalysis of Pike felt like it came from out of nowhere, and it was very disappointing that he was given the satisfaction of being right about something Pike didn't display any indication of. Nothing he did seemed particularly unusual given the circumstances, and Tyler's personality seems to be changing to serve the needs of the plot. To be fair, that's the same role he played last season. I suppose the composite mind is a convenient excuse for it, but it's still hard to track who he is and what he wants. Does he need to be a love interest, despite having no chemistry, so he can play a key role during a betrayal later? Get them together during an erased timeline and then just pretend it's still a thing. Here, he's rejected by the Klingons, picked up by Section 31 despite having no discernible skills (his talent as an infiltrator was literally due to being a sleeper agent, technically a person who is now dead), and then assigned to a ship where he's going to face a lot of opposition and resentment. The only reason to have him on Discovery is his relationship with Burnham, and she's been mostly absent on her own mission since he arrived. His interactions with Pike just seem empty. He's constantly aggressive to Pike for no reason, and it feels like it's only because they want to eventually have him be here to do things like he did this week, that no one else would be allowed to do. He's literally inserting himself into scenes because of S31's authority (which they wisely justified by having Cornwell authorize it), and it feels as forced as it is.

The show continues to look marvelous this season, and this week adds some amazing shots of Vulcan to the mix. The sets and the costumes are magnificent, even if they do show their budgetary constraints in size, they still manage to look wonderful. Sadly, the Spock plot feels strained, and nothing much happened. After all the searching for Spock, it turns out he's somehow managed to find his way home (wasn't Amanda the one out asking people to help her find him?) and is hiding out there. We get some family drama that didn't interest me much; we don't get anything new from anyone except seeing Amanda act like she doesn't realize she lives on Vulcan surrounded by Vulcans (not a character trait I appreciate), and then after all that Burnham takes Spock to Section 31 anyway, somehow without any difficulty.

But the worst part is what happens next: she gains nothing by taking him there. The entire side-trip to Section 31 served no purpose in her plot to find or help Spock, or gain access to his knowledge. If you want to write a "useless" diversion like that, it really needs to still serve an unintended purpose (either as an accidental gaining of some ancillary thing, or a new setback to overcome), but it feels very strongly as if the entire purpose of this set of scenes on the S31 ship was to let Burnham be completely snowed by The Emperor into helping her take over command. She practically admits as much to Burnham, and yet there is no argument, no questioning, no negotiation. She tells her that Spock is in danger and instead of interrogating any aspect of the situation she follows the plan given by someone she has avowed to not trust. And now Burnham and Spock are right back where they started, having played a role in someone else's story (so that the spin-off can have The Emperor where it wants her to be). She decoded the answer to the message from Spock without any new information.

And I admit I groaned when the results came up as Talos IV. I can see some potential there, but my first instinct is to feel the heavy hand of pandering across the screen. I don't need to have answers to all the questions I never asked. With luck, they'll give us something about why the death penalty is attached to this place, but I don't have a personal need to see the Talosians (they do look cool in the preview -- not how I would interpret them, but still cool -- though a bit too much like the Engineers from Prometheus, perhaps). Talos IV feels, to me, like the least-interesting solution to Spock's problem; it contributes again to the small-world problem Discovery struggles with rather than being an "oh, of course they can help!" moment which was probably the intent.

Stamets and Tilly have good chemistry together. I like his continued mentoring of her, and telling her to trust herself because he wouldn't ask just anyone to beam him through time. That's a lovely moment. The rest of the sciency-nonsense didn't do anything for me, and the whole time rift seemed to come out of nowhere (literally) in orbit above Kaminar... and then they just leave at Warp. I sure hope that shockwave isn't a problem for the war breaking out on the surface of the planet... None of this subplot served any purpose in this episode. It was a situation that is not unusual for Star Trek, providing a stage for Tyler's interactions with Pike, and (presumably) setting up shenanigans for the future (the probe, and Airiam's possession).

Poor Airiam. I do wonder if her going through all the Sphere's infodump previously and now this magical virus-communicated-by-a-simple-visual will be connected. She's not in for a pleasant time, I suspect. It probably would have been more streamlined if she'd been on the shuttle and infected directly, but that would have made in-universe sense (she could have navigated the rift due to her superior processing ability) and left out the unnecessary Tyler presence, and we can't have that. Missed opportunity to give the character a bit of screen-time there in a way that would have contributed to the story and flowed better.

And with this post, after eleven years of being registered and much longer being a lurker, I should finally be rid of that silly banner at the top of the forum welcoming me to the board and calling me a newbie. :D
 
It's the difference of a connection having an in-story logic, and being completely arbitrary, only to name-drop popular events and famous characters or organizations from the past. Also notice how the Ferengi aren't a well-known enemy re-used from TOS but a completely new one?
How is it any less 'arbitrary' then the Picard/Bok situation in that Sexction 31 has been doing things it believes keeps the Federation safe; but OFTEN screws up - and the fact Leyland may have done something as a Section 31 operative, that S31 ultimately realizes led the Klingons to raid/attack the Vulcan outpost where Burnham and her parents were stationed?
 
It’s all about the number of posts. It’ll go away soon enough.
I have the trophy and everything. The long wait has been kinda silly, but there it is. :p


Okay, 30 seconds in and I'm immediately confused. They now know for a fact that the Red Angel is from the future and that it's suit is "future technology?" How, uh, how would they know this? What differentiates it from an alien race with technology they've never seen before?
Not to mention that definitive knowledge of the Angel's nature kind of torpedoes the whole science vs. faith angle that was being built up.
I feel like the writers kinda skipped a few steps in unraveling the mystery here.
I agree. "Technology we don't recognize" does not immediately mean "it must be from the future" and I felt like I missed an episode somehow. That's a substantial leap in logic. It's not an unreasonable suspicion, but it's suddenly the working theory without any discernible proof.

If they do drop that tired "science vs. faith" false dichotomy plot, I won't miss it. It's played out, and nothing I've seen with these writers' understanding of science gives me confidence that they'd handle it in any way that would be satisfying instead of insulting (or even dangerously condescending). At any rate, the mystery did seem to skip ahead oddly; this episode didn't really follow very well off of the last in that regard.

God the turbo lift shaft is so ridiculous. There is no need for all that.
I don't care for it. It doesn't even qualify as a rule-of-cool thing, since it's just a visual mess. The implication that the interior of the ship is largely hollow and filled with whirring machines is a strange one. It doesn't ruin things for me, but it's just a strange choice I'd rather just roll my eyes at and move on.

Good thing the document was undated and anything that happens next week stays classified.
Sure, but that's a lazy go-to answer for anything a prequel does from a lack of planning or an over-abdundance of self-importance. It can work, but it seems like it's just too easy to explain everything that way, and dramatically it's the least interesting route. Yet another reason why the participation of S31 in this season's story is a problem: they're used as plot-hole wall-papering without needing to write solutions to problems. It's a crutch, and not a well-earned one either. Right now it's Discovery's version of deus ex machina technobabble, resolving issues in the Klingon story, moving characters around unmotivated (because Control said so), performing rescues, having access to sophisticated technology that predates the era, and potentially being an out for any otherwise-unresolved violations of established history.

They haven't earned those things. In previous shows, with all the tech and discoveries that are never seen again, Section 31 showing up to use them in a creative way to save the day could be satisfying, but Discovery hasn't followed that pattern, and this being a prequel show they don't have access to any of the goods from the later shows. It could work, but not here, and not yet.

Leland definitely got Burnham to let her guard down around Section 31. First by having assigned Tyler to Discovery earlier, and now by acting all sympathetic. She didn't trust Georgiou, but her mistrust was aimed in the wrong direction.
The trust issue here seemed odd. I didn't buy Burnham trusting Leland, even though the music was overtly trying to make him sound sympathetic; his words were peppered with Everything She Wanted to Hear, and she's normally a suspicious person. Worse, she believed the Emperor at a moment's turn without question, despite the fact that it was painfully obvious the Tyrant was asking her to help her undermine her superior for her own gain. This was a power play, and she manipulated Burnham without even getting any argument in return. Burnham was gullible in every scene. Is this justified by her desperation to protect her brother? Perhaps, I can buy that as consistent for her character, but it's unsatisfying to see two unlikable villains get their way without any threat of comeuppance at the expense of the ostensible main character, who leaves without any revelation of their folly.

Three dots? Is it Brainiac? :)
I thought that, too. Who knew Discovery was going to be a DC crossover? ;)

So, Section 31 was behind the Klingon attack on the Vulcan outpost?
I really hope not. "Section 31 did it" will become very tiresome, and "Section 31 has been manipulating her whole life" is equally as disappointing at "Spock's somehow been involved with the Red Angel plot his whole life". And, worryingly, these things may all be connected if it turns out the Red Angel is Section 31/Georgiou making sure everything happens they way they/she wants.

I'm not convinced that Georgiou was telling the truth about what Sect 31 was going to do to Spock. It smelled like it was all to improve her relationship with Michael and help get her out from under Leyland's thumb.
There is no question in my mind that's what those scenes were about. She may have been telling the truth about Spock, or not, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is that she asked Burnham to assist in her coup and Burnham obliged without hesitation.

“No one is more motivated to save Spock than Section 31.”
That’s probably the dumbest thing Sarek has ever said. :)
Yup. I immediately said to myself, "wanting access to what he knows does necessitate saving him, in fact they may be directly at odds". There was no logic to the statement, but the episode needed to get Spock on the road again, to the one place I would expect all four of them to avoid at all costs.
 
I really hope not. "Section 31 did it" will become very tiresome, and "Section 31 has been manipulating her whole life" is equally as disappointing at "Spock's somehow been involved with the Red Angel plot his whole life". And, worryingly, these things may all be connected if it turns out the Red Angel is Section 31/Georgiou making sure everything happens they way they/she wants.
S31 was involved some how, or at least Leland was. Georgiou says as much
 
It's the difference of a connection having an in-story logic, and being completely arbitrary, only to name-drop popular events and famous characters or organizations from the past. Also notice how the Ferengi aren't a well-known enemy re-used from TOS but a completely new one?
As pointed out, we had that recurring several times in TOS, especially around Kirk.

Most of the connections are completely arbitrary and there for drama.
 
S31 was involved some how, or at least Leland was. Georgiou says as much
Right. She's a lying liar who lies, but this bomb was dropped with the intent to intimidate and he didn't deny it, so it's likely true in some fashion. I'm just weary of the implications.

We'll see where it leads.
 
Likewise, the TV show Powerless, also set in the DC universe, followed the non-adventures of the R&D departement of Wayne Security, a subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises. The show was actually pretty fun but was sadly cancelled after 9 episodes.
FYI: There are 12 episodes of Powerless, including episode 10 with Adam West.
 
As pointed out, we had that recurring several times in TOS, especially around Kirk.

Most of the connections are completely arbitrary and there for drama.

Yes, it happened on TOS - Kirk being a survivor of Kodos was equally forced and annoying.
That doesn't excuse the same flaw here.

And, in fact, over 78 episodes of TOS these extreme personal coincidental connections happened less than in ~20 episodes of DIS so far.
Like - imagine literally any other criteria in which a show from 2019 is objectively worse than a show from the 60s!
Stuff like that would be too contrieved for a "less realistic" show like the Orville. On a modern-day flagship straming show it's simply unacceptable.

Note that this in no way dismisses the show in it's entirety - because a lot of people here seem to get extremely defensive once the tiniest bit of criticism against DIS is mentioned. But this simply is undeniably a major flaw of the show, an aspect where the final product is miles behind any competition and, yes, even an almost 60 year old show from the past.
 
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