Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x07 - "Light and Shadows"

[Doc Mugatu]

No reason, how about $$$? IMHO, is there has not been one Star Trek show that has not invoked TOS one way or another, either overtly, covertly or dismissively on a regular basis.

Not $$$. Fear. This is season 2. As for "the other shows did it" defenses, well, that is inherently flawed logic. So far season 2 is swimming in the tidal pool of TOS. Not an episode or an instance but an entire season so far and it only seems to doubling down.

 

[Campe]

I don't get this new trend in hate for continuity.

Some of us like world building and that requires SOME consistency.

To say that cannon or continuity restricts writers is bollocks and a excuse for lazy writing.

Sure minor error errors will creep in and there will be updates in visual design, that's ok.

But to radically change the star trek universe? No.

The star trek universe is HUGE, there is enough potential to tell storys without rebooting every 5 minutes.

You hit the nail on the head. "SOME consistency." That does not mean there isn't room to make a few changes along the way. Being so locked into continuity/canon to the point that if something doesn't happen EXACTLY as one character suggests is just dangerous. Our characters are not infallible. Even Spock and Data can make mistakes. Things can be covered up or not put in the record in their entirety. I ultimately put good storytelling above keeping an exact record of how things happen. I believe in a show not tell mentality far more than I believe in having to follow to the letter exactly what one character says.

Case in point: Talos IV and General Order 7. I don't believe the rationale for a visit to Talos deserving the death penalty makes a lot of sense as seen in "The Cage." Never really did. But for years, that's what we believed. That Michael is able to set course for Talos IV in the last episode suggests there is more to the story. Its not important to the story of "Menagerie" for Spock to say, "And I went there with my sister, Michael, and Section 31 attempted to weaponize their abilities of illusion which is why the death penalty was implemented for a visit to Talos" or whatever might happen over the rest of the season Its not important to the story of "Menagerie" to give a why. It is important to Discovery Season 2, for whatever reason. It expands on the continuity and does so in a way that makes sense. At least I hope it does. We'll see.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I'm sure someone else mentioned it, but the Talos co-ordinates are from the 1986 FASA RPG booklet The Federation. Very cool bit of obscure lore.

 

[Alan Roi]

Not $$$. Fear. This is season 2. As for "the other shows did it" defenses, well, that is inherently flawed logic. So far season 2 is swimming in the tidal pool of TOS. Not an episode or an instance but an entire season so far and it only seems to doubling down.

Man, some people are still thinking in Berman era terms. Not sure when they will get over it, if ever. IMO, the series is as much a sequel right now of what might have been a Jeffrey Hunter era Star Trek as a TOS Star Trek. Of course if they were really "afraid", they would have done what all the TNG era fans wanted and swim in a tidal pool of TNG like all the other Berman era shows did. But hey, don't worry, you can bring that up in the fall, right?

Honestly its all about the cheddar. Even for those making a buck off of claiming its fear because people believe what they want to believe..

 

[Alan Roi]

With the advent of DISCOVERY, I'm hoping that the guy in the Silver "BOX" chair, turns out not to be Pike at all.
And something much more nefarious is going on.

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Come on, he's just doing his job.

(pity they didn't bring him back for the TV show, though. Although they did have a Data prototype in REM)

 

[Vger23]

I keep wanting to see these new Star Trek's break their slave chains to the past yet they keep going there. Cautiously curious to see how this trip to Talos IV does not upset the applecart of continuity for The Cage or The Menagerie? Is this season going to end with a BIG reset?

Its a Star Trek tradition
TNG - The Naked Now
DS9 - The tribbles episodes
ENT - The Mirror universe episodes
VOY - ???

But I agree with you, break every chain, do your own thing Discovery!

I must admit, I actually totallly disagree with the "DSC needs to do its own thing" sentiment. This is really the FIRST Star Trek that has purposefully decided to set itself in a manner that is deliberately linked to TOS. The characters, setting, and events are tied to that era directly and purposefully. I don't think it's about fear or anything else, I think it's a conscious creative choice.

Aside from a few self-conscious references, outright aping (Naked Now), and some homages for the anniversary (Trials and Tribbleations / Flashback), it always felt to me like the Berman-era shows tried to avoid direct ties to TOS at all costs and / or give you speeches about how those characters were a bunch of cowboys who would never cut it in the sparkling, righteous 24th century.

I think purposefully tying the events and characters of DSC to those of TOS gives the show a unique and special place as a Trek spin-off. It's one of the main reasons I tune in every week. The other spin-offs to me always felt like they were happy to steal the name, the branding, the lingo and everything else from TOS, but were ultimately ashamed to own TOS as their origin.

No reason, how about $$$? IMHO, is there has not been one Star Trek show that has not invoked TOS one way or another, either overtly, covertly or dismissively on a regular basis.

TNG: We're better than TOS because we are more mature and intelligent than those ignorant coyboys and will insult any of them if they ever make an appearance.
DS9: We're fanboys of TOS, so much so that we make heroes from Klingon war criminals who show up.
VOY: We do everything that Kirk did, but in high heels (FYI, Ginger Rogers vs. Fred Astaire ref)
ENT: We do everything that Kirk and co did and more, AND 100 years before their grandparents were in diapers.

Savvy?

I agree.

Back in the Sixties and considering who wrote it...
It probably meant Nymphomaniac.

That was actually always my interpretation of the line as well....

 

[thribs]

“No one is more motivated to save Spock than Section 31.”

That’s probably the dumbest thing Sarek has ever said.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Man, some people are still thinking in Berman era terms. Not sure when they will get over it, if ever. IMO, the series is as much a sequel right now of what might have been a Jeffrey Hunter era Star Trek as a TOS Star Trek. Of course if they were really "afraid", they would have done what all the TNG era fans wanted and swim in a tidal pool of TNG like all the other Berman era shows did. But hey, don't worry, you can bring that up in the fall, right?

Well the Berman era ended up being quite traumatizing (considering the abomination that was Enterprise). Following that we got the abysmal Abrams era (see I didn't say Jar-Jar … DOH!). So I think our PTSD as it relates to Star Trek and built up over the last 17 years or so is understandable.

You wish to pretend this is a sequel series that's fine. My point is simply they didn't need to touch upon TOS at all. Again, it is big wide Federation out there with literally a trillion fresh stories to be told and adventures to be had that in no way require playing off TOS so directly. I do believe it is a weakness they have chosen to do so. Having said, so far has been very good but most of the TV Treks were great at setting up things but not so stellar on the follow through side. So far what I've seen has me optimistic if not for the Paramount induced PTSD.

 

[thribs]

People are saying that the Borg modified the probe but maybe it was the Builders. The chaps who messed with Voyager to make V’Ger.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I must admit, I actually totally disagree with the "DSC needs to do its own thing" sentiment. This is really the FIRST Star Trek that has purposefully decided to set itself in a manner that is deliberately linked to TOS. The characters, setting, and events are tied to that era directly and purposefully. I don't think it's about fear or anything else, I think it's a conscious creative choice. ... it always felt to me like the Berman-era shows tried to avoid direct ties to TOS at all costs and / or give you speeches about how those characters were a bunch of cowboys who would never cut it in the sparkling, righteous 24th century. I think purposefully tying the events and characters of DSC to those of TOS gives the show a unique and special place as a Trek spin-off. It's one of the main reasons I tune in every week. The other spin-offs to me always felt like they were happy to steal the name, the branding, the lingo and everything else from TOS, but were ultimately ashamed to own TOS as their origin.

Well said. If that is your perspective I have no problem with that whatsoever. Between Star Trek and Star Wars constant strip mining their past to dubious results I am just tired and afraid of disappointment. As I've said before Discovery has so far been great and am eager for them to restore my faith.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Well the Berman era ended up being quite traumatizing (considering the abomination that was Enterprise). Following that we got the abysmal Abrams era (see I didn't say Jar-Jar … DOH!). So I think our PTSD as it relates to Star Trek and built up over the last 17 years or so is understandable.

Oh, good lord. Don't be such a caricature.

 

[Mr Awe]

I was torn between giving this one a 7 or 8. I went with 7 but it's a strong 7.

There was lots to like in this episode. Particularly the drama of Pike and Ash in the shuttle. Pretty good stuff there. Overall, I enjoyed the investigation of the time anomaly. So, red angel is probably (but not definitively) from 500 years in the future. I'm guessing there are two opposing sides. But, it's not clear. The story used both Stamets and Tilly to good effect--both in being able to see through the anomaly clearly and Tilly's advanced skills at math and using that for transporter coordinates.

From here, the rest of the episode wasn't quite a strong. Not bad, but not strongly good either.

I wasn't quite as enamored with the Burnham, Spock, and family angle. We've had a big deal searching for Spock. But, no, he's right there in a cave on Vulcan. A big let down for the whole search thing. They should've let Discovery's find Spock through a series of adventures, but that process was short circuited. I also don't completely buy that Amanda was able to single handedly find Spock without anyone else noticing, particularly given the high interest of Starfleet and S31. You bet S31 would have eye's on Spock's family in case they're harboring him!

Spock's family dynamics haven't bothered me up to this point but in this episode it seemed a bit too much. Not a plus for me. And, no, the spouse of an ambassador would have no power to use the spouse's power on their behalf. Not in any rational form of government at least.

The shenanigans on the S31 ship were a little interesting, but mainly a lot of talk about what's going on. The fight between Burnham and Georgiou was added to disguise the focus on telling rather than showing. We were told a whole bunch of stuff in there. Some real and some fake. And then they escaped. A, geez, no, Leland caused the death of Burnham's parents?! I haven't had this problem before, but the universe is getting a bit small for my tastes!

As a huge fan of The Cage, one of my favorite ST stories of all time, I'm very much looking forward to returning to Talos IV. Let's see if those Talosians can fix Spock's mind!

 

[Doc Mugatu]

Oh, good lord. Don't be such a caricature.

Caricature, how so?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Caricature, how so?

The over-the-top entitled fan who blows everything out of proportion. Even being hyperbolic, that was just ridiculous.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

With the advent of DISCOVERY, I'm hoping that the guy in the Silver "BOX" chair, turns out not to be Pike at all.
And something much more nefarious is going on.

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It's the right century, at least!

 

[Alan Roi]

Well the Berman era ended up being quite traumatizing (considering the abomination that was Enterprise). Following that we got the abysmal Abrams era (see I didn't say Jar-Jar … DOH!). So I think our PTSD as it relates to Star Trek and built up over the last 17 years or so is understandable.

You wish to pretend this is a sequel series that's fine. My point is simply they didn't need to touch upon TOS at all. Again, it is big wide Federation out there with literally a trillion fresh stories to be told and adventures to be had that in no way require playing off TOS so directly. I do believe it is a weakness they have chosen to do so. Having said, so far has been very good but most of the TV Treks were great at setting up things but not so stellar on the follow through side. So far what I've seen has me optimistic if not for the Paramount induced PTSD.

I think we do have somewhat similar views of TNG through ENT era.

I have to admit a certain amount of what I'm seeing in Disco taking me back to the days when I wanted as much as I could get a hold of where it came to Trek (and when TOS was all there was) I wanted more insight on the characters I was watching as a kid. So this does provide me a certain satisfaction where characters we never knew much about, Sarek, Amanda, Pike, Number One, even super-secretive Spock. So I appreciate the added depth these characters now posesses in my head as I did from the best Trek novels I read as a youth.

And, subjectively or not, I distinguish this from those who's nostalgia consists of color coded uniforms and adherence to the idea that retrotrek and visual continuity adherence should have been what we got, and believe that CBSAA is also avoiding such simplistic pandering because its not nostalgia I am/they are seeking out but illumination that desconstructs and enhances how such mostly marginally developed characters are looked at. Say, like the thrill and satisfaction I got from watching Mr. Holmes as a more Rashomonesque approach that offers a different angle/interpretation that effectively engages my mind.

 

[Mr Awe]

I’m guessing Spock wants to go to talos because their powers can help fix his brain

Agreed. I don't think there's much doubt about that. Also, we (well, Burnham) will be able to see what Spock has seen with their ability to create realistic illusions.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

The over-the-top entitled fan who blows everything out of proportion. Even being hyperbolic, that was just ridiculous.

It's called "style," my friend and it brought a chuckle to your emoji.

 

[Mr Awe]

I was thinking about that. Will we see Vina next week and who will play her?

She should be there. Pike left her there previously, and she was still there when Kirk returned Pike to Talos IV.

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm watching it at home for the second time (first time was on my laptop during my work lunch break). The scene with Leland/Section 31 if they are trying to harm Spock, my new theory, its Sarek with his influence that gets the department shut down for the attempted assault on his son and for the murder of Burnham's parents and the other colonists.
However MU Pippa around, nothing is shut down for long....