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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x04 - "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry"

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I'm not saying animal cruelty isn't terrible but it's her REACTION which confuses me. Shouldn't she be more panicked about the dying miners?
Why not both? Can one not have compassion for all of the innocent who suffer? It's clear she's conflicted. "The needs of the many" obviously rings through her head, but that doesn't mean she has to like it, or comply with it for very long.
 
Voq considered using the parts of the Shenzhou as being blasphemous, because Voq sees T'Kuvma as the Klingon messiah. It's a cult.


It wasn't cannibalism. Humans are an entirely different species. That they can mate doesn't make them the same species, even if they are compatible. Humans eat meat. We can be villainous, too.


They're cultish, but not cannibals. Anyway, they both believe in purity of vision and loyalty. Cult leaders bed partners because of this dynamic.


The Klingon cult members were starving to death. Kol comes along with food, drink, and the promise of much more if they switch sides. Of course they switch sides. Hell, humans have been doing that shit for thousands of years.


When have they not had instantaneous communication in the Federation? Every example of communication we've ever seen has been instantaneous, even hundreds of light years away. As for a distress call, what are you talking about?

Honestly, rewatch the episode, you may have missed a few key scenes.

Excellent rebutalls! :beer:
 
No, I got all that but it's poor writing.

And the Klingons are the ones who can't make a distress call is my point.
 
You're confusing the Enterprise with DS9
I can see why you don't like DSC now. :lol:

Wonder if "You have to give up everything" means the Torchbearer becomes the first human-looking Klingon. The show hasn't exactly been subtle so far, so i won't be surprised.
I think we all got that telegram ;)

I started watching Enterprise this week. I'm about 12 episodes in and am not at all inclined to stop.

*Oh and the song is fucking awesome.
One of us. One of us

I think the higher scores are because the previous three episodes left a lot to be desired. This episode had some flashes of classic Trek, but is still not yet there.
Not for me. I voted how I felt.

You don't think the Klingon scenes were interminable? Serious question.
They were all right. Getting better.

New idea for a pointless Discovery forum thread: Who is greater and more badass: Lorca or Robau?
Lorca is Robau. When the Narada was sucked through the final black hole in 09 Robau was reborn.

The only reason people are falling over Lorca is because of Isaacs.
I think the same can be said for Picard and Sisko, Heck without Shatner, Kirk would be Pike.
 
Stirrups, riding crops, riding horses to death in battle. Hannibal getting his elephants drunk and then stabbing them with spears in the ankles to get them nice and pissed and sending them towards the Romans. That's just off the top of my head.

There is zero symbiotic about any of the situations I just stated. Unless you're talking farm horses, and obviously we're not.
Horses have been abused, yes, and as civilization has advanced, we have become more aware of these abuses, and have created organizations to pursue those abusers. A post-scarcity society should not be so ready to sacrifice sentient beings on the altar of immediate want, even in times of war.
 
Voq considered using the parts of the Shenzhou as being blasphemous, because Voq sees T'Kuvma as the Klingon messiah. It's a cult.

Yes, which makes him a ridiculous idealist who is not pragmatic enough to be a genuine threat to the heroes. It shows him as stupid and unwilling to do what is necessary to win. It's a bad bit of storytelling if we're supposed to buy this guy as a villain.

It wasn't cannibalism. Humans are an entirely different species. That they can mate doesn't make them the same species, even if they are compatible. Humans eat meat. We can be villainous, too.

I generally disapprove of eating any sapient species.

They're cultish, but not cannibals. Anyway, they both believe in purity of vision and loyalty. Cult leaders bed partners because of this dynamic.

He is failing as a cult leader given all of his cult abandons him.

The Klingon cult members were starving to death. Kol comes along with food, drink, and the promise of much more if they switch sides. Of course they switch sides. Hell, humans have been doing that shit for thousands of years.

Not really selling T'Kuvma's fanatical followers very well.

When have they not had instantaneous communication in the Federation? Every example of communication we've ever seen has been instantaneous, even hundreds of light years away. As for a distress call, what are you talking about?

Honestly, rewatch the episode, you may have missed a few key scenes.

I saw the scenes and they paint our villains as idiots. Klingons deserve better.
 
These are pre-Kirk Klingons. Maybe it took them a while to get smart? 24 Houses and all?
I'm not so sure...

star-trek-farpoint-worf-phaser.jpg
 
I'm guessing Ripper is sentient. He's their own space whale! Now they need to add Amy Pond (new security chief?).

It's interesting you mention Doctor Who...I noticed how familiar the moans (of agony?) of Ripper sounded. Then I realized they sound almost exactly the same as the moans of "The Teller" in the Doctor Who episode Time Heist.
 
Yes, which makes him a ridiculous idealist who is not pragmatic enough to be a genuine threat to the heroes. It shows him as stupid and unwilling to do what is necessary to win. It's a bad bit of storytelling if we're supposed to buy this guy as a villain.
Cult leaders are charismatic, not as often brilliant. Of course, now he has someone who can see things from the outside in L'rell. He may become more dangerous yet.

I generally disapprove of eating any sapient species.
Even with ketchup?

He is failing as a cult leader given all of his cult abandons him.
Cult leaders can only maintain their status if they keep everyone ignorant and hungry. Once the new guy arrives with promises of plenty, and can deliver, that cult is kaput. Usually.

Not really selling T'Kuvma's fanatical followers very well.
Not selling anything, just explaining what's on screen.

I saw the scenes and they paint our villains as idiots. Klingons deserve better.
Every alien race is an idiot when it suits the script. Ferengi, Romulans, Klingons, Andorians, Cardassians, Bajorans, doesn't matter, friend or foe, they all get the moron treatment every so often as to make our humans look better. It's a classic Star Trek storytelling trope.
 
In any case, I feel like the writers are writing about an entirely different species than the Klingons. We get mention of the Great Houses and their complicated politics but they've really made them DUMB.

Which the Klingons have never been.

1. Refuse to fix their ship with enemy parts.
2. Cannibalism designed to make them more villainous.
3. The weird love moment between the two lead Klingons that would be romantic if they weren't a pair of psychotic cannibals.
4. The fact T'Kuvma's fanatics abandon their new leader because of a bucket of fried chicken.
I mean, the villains of the show aren't even in the frigging war!
5. Apparently, they have instantaneous communication in the Federation but a distress call is impossible.

What the hell!
I'd like to address some of the issues you raise, as one who has noticed the show's willingness to let things play out over time and not give us all the answers in one episode.

1. T'Kuvma is unwilling to concede anything to the Federation until he is made to realize that he has to, for the greater good; combat pragmatism at work.

2. Yes, it makes them more villainous, but they were also starving. The show acknowledges this fact, and we don't know that they would've done it if they had the choice.

3. The whole point of the moment is to show there's more going on with them than just being 2-dimensional stock villains. Frankly, I think we're meant to see parallels between the Klingons and the Federation, that neither side is absolutely what the other thinks they are.

4. Again, pragmatism in war. They backed the wrong horse, so to speak. T'Kuvma (and Voq) promised victory and unity, and only offered isolation and hunger, not to mention being sidelined from the actual conflict.

Incidentally, I tend to think that the cult of Kahless has value to the Empire in warfare, but not in leadership. In victory, they create a rallying point for the Empire (and the Great Houses) to pursue their own agenda, "in the name of Kahless". In defeat, he's a scapegoat who misled the people and will suffer dearly in Grethor for his sins.
 
The moment between Voq and L'Rell in the Shenzhou engine room has some of the best acting we've seen thus far from the Klingons. We see a quiet moment between two people with all the rhetoric stripped away, and the actors, particularly Mary Chieffo, do so much acting with their eyes; it's fun to see something resembling subtlety from characters who by their nature do so much posturing.

I agree that the Shenzhou engine room scene was really well done. Maybe I just have a dirty mind, but I was slightly amused when Voq says to L'Rell, "I am fortunate to have you", then they gaze into each other's eyes, and then L'Rell says "Shall we uncouple?" I don't know if the innuendo was intentional or not, but it made me chuckle.
 
I agree that the Shenzhou engine room scene was really well done. Maybe I just have a dirty mind, but I was slightly amused when Voq says to L'Rell, "I am fortunate to have you", then they gaze into each other's eyes, and then L'Rell says "Shall we uncouple?" I don't know if the innuendo was intentional or not, but it made me chuckle.
I am absolutely convinced it was intentional.
 
I agree that the Shenzhou engine room scene was really well done. Maybe I just have a dirty mind, but I was slightly amused when Voq says to L'Rell, "I am fortunate to have you", then they gaze into each other's eyes, and then L'Rell says "Shall we uncouple?" I don't know if the innuendo was intentional or not, but it made me chuckle.
My mind is filthy. I agree.
 
I have watched the first three episodes as they aired and was watching this one up until the point where we have a Starfleet captain warmongering and "Klingons" that now apparently eat human flesh, and I have turned it off. I am so sick of this garbage. I'm sorry, this is not Star Trek. Not MY Star Trek anyway. I don't like a single thing they have done to this franchise. Star Trek is dead, and it died with Enterprise. To those that are liking this, I'm happy for you. But I've been watching TNG a lot the last week, just watched "Darmok" today. And to follow up something that masterful with the wreck that is Discovery just makes Discovery an even more bitter pill to swallow. I'm not trying to troll, or bait anyone. I am just simply heartbroken that something that has been so dear to me for my entire 34 years of life is being handled this way, first with the Kelvin movies and now this new "Prime" universe show. I'm sorry, this is not my Trek universe.

Well, I don't know what YOUR Star Trek is, but all the points you made were covered in past Trek. Maybe you just didn't (want to) realize it.
 
I can't scan through 18 pages of this...what did the Discovery leave behind to take out the remaining Birds of Prey? There were no orders about dropping anything off, and they look too long and skinny to be torpedoes, but they made the TOS torpedo sound. Can someone straighten that out for me? Thanks.
 
Gave it a 6.
Love the updated graphics.
Hate the counter spinning hulls.
Also the concept of organic travel (spores galore) everywhere in the universe...
a bit too much like Aladdin's Lamp. I'll watch I dream of Jeannie reruns when I want
magic in place of sci fi.
Klingons hard to listen to and their lengthy speeches are subtitled to quickly to read AND
absorb the visuals of the scene. Better when you watch with a pause switch. And since I'm on a gripe
campaign... it was totally unbelievable that Burnham and Georgiou were the only two to board the Klingon ship to take T'Kuvma hostage.
Such stupidity gets one or both served up on a Klingon menu... and rightly so.
Save the whales, toughen up the girls wuss out the boys, push social agendas on everyone and dare them to dislike it or comment on it.
If it weren't for the graphics and production I would have given it a 3.
And why Sarek? Why not a descendant of T'Pol? Or Soval? Lots of Vulcans learned to tolerate / appreciate humans enough to take in a ward (Burnham). Did it have to be Spock's daddy?
I'm done.
 
The Klingon scenes are still as boring as watching paint dry....and I say this as someone who watches a majority of subtitled movies. The show grinds to a damn halt when they're onscreen. I really don't like them.

Sickbay looked cool. In fact the overall design is what I like most about the show. They've really nailed the reimagining of the Trek aesthetic, combining JJ-verse stuff with Enterprise, and new things.

I didn't like that the security chief was killed but I saw it coming.

I love the new communications/hails with the hologram forms. Really cool.

Plot-wise this was pretty much classic Trek, but if they're doing a war storyline in this modern TV era, I'm waiting for them to REALLY dig into it, with every episode building on the last. We'll see what happens.

Overall 7/10.
 
I love Lorca and his "win at all costs" attitude. I have a feeling that will bit him before the end of the season but an interesting stance for a captain.
I am 99% sure at this point that Lorca is working for Section 31 or something very similar to it. Everything about his attitude and the way he runs this ship hints at his command and his mission being not entirely kosher.

That argument fails with The Undiscovered Country.

They're Space Fascists, not Orcs.

Eating people feels like the Federation version of blood libel.
I remember this interesting quote from Malcolm Reed: "Apparently they sharpen their teeth before going into battle." It may not be blood libel at all, it could entirely be cultural: Klingons are apex predators on their planet, and through most of their antiquity probably didn't have a concept of "war" at all; fighting over the dominant position in a tribe is just part of a social landscape, while fighting over territory against a rival tribe would probably result in the looser being eaten by the winners.

Most Klingon houses (basically equivalent to nations at this point) would have moved away from this kind of behavior, but T'Kuvma's clan are fundamentalists and fanatics, so of course they're going back to the old traditional ways.

In any case, I feel like the writers are writing about an entirely different species than the Klingons. We get mention of the Great Houses and their complicated politics but they've really made them DUMB.

Which the Klingons have never been.

1. Refuse to fix their ship with enemy parts.
2. Cannibalism designed to make them more villainous.
3. The weird love moment between the two lead Klingons that would be romantic if they weren't a pair of psychotic cannibals.
4. The fact T'Kuvma's fanatics abandon their new leader because of a bucket of fried chicken.
I mean, the villains of the show aren't even in the frigging war!
5. Apparently, they have instantaneous communication in the Federation but a distress call is impossible.
T'Kuvma's not a soldier or an admiral. He's technically not even part of the Empire. He's a religious fanatic who pulled off a remarkably well-timed publicity stunt only to have the whole thing totally blow up in his face. The rest of the great houses don't give two shits about him OR about his goofy little cult (which is actually kind of interesting, IMO) which is why when the battle was over and T'Kumva was dead, they pretty much rolled their eyes and left him and his fellow cult members drifting in space.

I actually think Kol didn't expect them to even still be alive at this point and had assumed they'd all starved to death in that busted up thousand-year-old jalopy they laughably call a starship. This band of lunatics isn't particularly impressive or even important, and the only reason anyone still cares about them is because T'Kuvma bought stock in Cloaks r Us before he got killed.

All in all, it's a different way of doing The Klingons. TOS and the movies gave them as space fascists with an inferiority complex. TNG turned them into hyper-masculine samurai bikers. Discovery seems to be showing us that you can't actually reduce the Klingons to ANYTHING AT ALL; they're space fascists, they're samurai bikers, they're ISIL jihadists, they're Klingon nationalists, they're warriors, they're cowards, they're geniuses, they're idiots, they're schemers, they're goons, and they haven't figured out what the hell they're really supposed to really be anyway, which is exactly why this war started in the first place.

The scene on the Glenn, interestingly enough, illustrates this point in a lot of ways. The one Klingon survivor they find on the ship is standing in the hallway, probably a little bit in shock; where TNG would have him shout a bunch of threatening-sounding Klingon nonsense like a warrior and TOS would put some weird "I knew it! Federation treachery! I bet this whole thing was a trap to lure us into your clutches so you can interrogate me!" But what does this Klingon do? He shushes them. Because he doesn't speak English, he doesn't what the ripper is, he doesn't know what the hell is going on; the only thing he knows is that he doesn't want to get eaten, and he's fucking scared.

That may be a small thing to you, but as with the above, what it all boils down to is a concerted attempt to portray Klingons as genuine characters with something approaching emotional depth and internal existence. So it isn't that the Klingons are eating their foes or cannibalizing their ships, it's that they're CONFLICTED about eating their foes and/or cannibalizing their ships. It isn't that the Klingons default to the violent warrior path because that's just the way they are; it's that the Klingons WANT to default to the violent warrior path because that's the way they've always been and they're scared of what they'll become if they don't. And yes, the Klingons are kind of stupid for not being able to fix their busted up ancient jalopy of a starship... and yeah, OTHER Klingons think that's pretty stupid too, and are probably mocking T'kuvma's legacy for his followers being so amazingly incompetent.
 
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