Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread

[Jedman67]

I get that it was probably the result of mashing together planned plotlines due to the impending cancellation but the "Section 31" multiverse rift mission in LD was a bizarred choice that seemed to have very little to do with S31 as an organization.

I don't take LD seriously. It's meant to be a comedy and animation has a very hard time to cross over into live action.

Unless Mike Mcmahan has said anything about his reason to put William in charge of the mission and make him S31, I assume it's just a concept that he thought was funny and he made it work.

 

[Dukhat]

So did the one in TAS as they were freezing in a snowstorm at one point.

I haven’t seen TAS. But that only reinforces my point.

 

[fireproof78]

So did the one in TAS as they were freezing in a snowstorm at one point.

Well, yeah, but how can you expect Gene Roddenberry to remember an episode of a show he was a writer on while creating his new show?

 

[James Cole]

People keep throwing around that the budget for this thing could be in the $80 to $100 million range. What kind of Nielsen watch minutes does it then need to garner to not be considered a failure? To not be Kurtzman's HEAVEN'S GATE (the film, not that other one from the 1990's) or JOHN CARTER?

 

[fireproof78]

42.

 

[Lady Mondegreen]

I don't take LD seriously. It's meant to be a comedy and animation has a very hard time to cross over into live action.

Unless Mike Mcmahan has said anything about his reason to put William in charge of the mission and make him S31, I assume it's just a concept that he thought was funny and he made it work.

That's fair -- there are a lot of things in LD (and other Trek shows for that matter) that I don't really bother trying to slot into canon. The fact that we learn William is S31 through the ominous evil cackling scene and the mission he's on turns out to be pretty normal Starfleet type stuff (and nothing about his S31 status is really played for laughs in his return) suggests to me that there was originally a different plan for his storyline that was changed due to the cancellation, but that's just speculation on my part and it's ultimately not a big deal.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I wonder if the different shows were asked to include Section 31 in order to build hype for the upcoming movie, because it really doesn't seem like they had any place in Lower Decks and the mention they got in Picard was really awkward.

 

[Tuskin38]

suggests to me that there was originally a different plan for his storyline that was changed due to the cancellation,

They had already finished writing when the show was cancelled, so I doubt it effected it.

and the mention they got in Picard was really awkward.

I disagree, it was a big part of the villain's backstory, feels like something S31 would do.

and animation has a very hard time to cross over into live action.

I think they did very well in the SNW Crossover.

Mike has said in the past that LDS's events were an 'exaggeration' of actual events.

 

[Lady Mondegreen]

They had already finished writing when the show was cancelled, so I doubt it effected it.


I disagree, it was a big part of the villain's backstory.

Is that true? The last episode is a pretty clear series finale so it doesn't make sense to me that they would have fully written it before the cancellation news.

 

[NCC-73515]

San also seems to be in it (from her Terra Firma flashbacks)

 

[F. King Daniel]

Yeah, the closest equivalent to Section 31 in Marvel would be Hydra, though the comparison's far from perfect. They're a challenge to the Federation's utopia, so making a movie about them being goofy misfits who ultimately save the day is just baffling.

Did they not save the galaxy in Deep Space Nine?

 

[Citiprime]

Did they not save the galaxy in Deep Space Nine?

Not necessarily.

While the Changeling virus crippled the ability of the Founders to infiltrate, if Section 31's genocide had been successful, there would have been no one to turn off the war.

The Jem'Hadar and Vorta might have fought to the last man in the Alpha Quadrant. And the Dominion forces may have rampaged out of control in the Gamma Quadrant, killing billions of innocent people.

 

[The Wormhole]

Is that true? The last episode is a pretty clear series finale so it doesn't make sense to me that they would have fully written it before the cancellation news.

When the cancellation was announced, they made minor rewrites to the finale to add the eight minute coda at the end, but otherwise the episode is the same as the intended season finale when they thought they'd still get a sixth season.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Did they not save the galaxy in Deep Space Nine?

Like Citiprime said, they nearly sent the Jem'Hadar on an uncontrolled murderous rampage. Across two quadrants. If it wasn't for Bashir kidnapping a Section 31 operative and getting the cure from them, things could've turned out horrifically worse.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Not necessarily.

While the Changeling virus crippled the ability of the Founders to infiltrate, if Section 31's genocide had been successful, there would have been no one to turn off the war.

The Jem'Hadar and Vorta might have fought to the last man in the Alpha Quadrant. And the Dominion forces may have rampaged out of control in the Gamma Quadrant, killing billions of innocent people.

Like Citiprime said, they nearly sent the Jem'Hadar on an uncontrolled murderous rampage. Across two quadrants. If it wasn't for Bashir kidnapping a Section 31 operative and getting the cure from them, things could've turned out horrifically worse.

I thought it and the cure were what brought the Founders to the negotiating table. Without leadership, the Jem'Hadar would have killed millions but without co-ordination, likely would have been defeated eventually.

Without Section 31, negotiation wasn't something the Founders had anything to gain by.

Keeping in mind it's been many many years since I saw DS9.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

If I recall, Odo beams down to the Female Changeling and makes his case that if she ends the war, the Federation will stop the others from invading the Gamma Quadrant, and offers to link with her to make a more convincing point. He says he also thinks it will cure her, she asks what he expects in return, and he says 'nothing'.

 

[Citiprime]

I thought it and the cure were what brought the Founders to the negotiating table. Without leadership, the Jem'Hadar would have killed millions but without co-ordination, likely would have been defeated eventually.

Without Section 31, negotiation wasn't something the Founders had anything to gain by.

Keeping in mind it's been many many years since I saw DS9.

I would argue it's not the virus as much as it's Odo that brings them to the table.

They do set up the war's ending in season 6 even before the virus becomes a thing for the Changelings. In "Favor the Bold," the Female Founder tells Weyoun that Odo's return to the Great Link is more important than even the Alpha Quadrant. And if you rewatch the scene where she agrees to give the order to the Jem'Hadar to stand down in the series finale, I always get the vibe that she's not only satisfied the Changeling's will be healed. The Female Founder seems content with the deal, because she's also forcing Odo to go home.

If you go back through the series, it's their need to connect with Odo that is their ultimate undoing.

The Great Link's need to call Odo home in season 3's "The Search" reveals their existence as the Founders of the Dominion.

It's their failure to understand why Odo remains at DS9 with Kira and the crew, and why Odo defends them against other Changelings, that leads to them to punishing him in season 4's "Broken Link," and infecting the entire Great Link with the Section 31 virus.

And in the end, it's Odo going home that causes their surrender.

 

[Noname Given]

Like Citiprime said, they nearly sent the Jem'Hadar on an uncontrolled murderous rampage. Across two quadrants. If it wasn't for Bashir kidnapping a Section 31 operative and getting the cure from them, things could've turned out horrifically worse.

The Jem Hadr would have died out pretty quickly as it was the Founders who controlled the production and distribution of the Ketracel White.

And even if the vorta we're able to continue production of the drug, with their 'gods' dead might have Vorta factions fighting for the glory of their particular Founder carrying out their last orders before they died.

Hell given how tenuous the control the board I had over the Jem Hadar was, even with the drug; you might see the Jem Hadr mass exterminating Vorta before they turn their attention to the Federation, at which point the supply of Ketracel White would probably running out.

 

[fireproof78]

Not necessarily.

While the Changeling virus crippled the ability of the Founders to infiltrate, if Section 31's genocide had been successful, there would have been no one to turn off the war.

The Jem'Hadar and Vorta might have fought to the last man in the Alpha Quadrant. And the Dominion forces may have rampaged out of control in the Gamma Quadrant, killing billions of innocent people.

Except, who produced the White?

And how long can they live without it?

 

[Citiprime]

The gym adore would have died out pretty quickly as it was the Founders who controlled the production and distribution of the Ketracel White.

Except, who produced the White?

And how long can they live without it?

Isn't there a line in Star Trek: Insurrection which states at least some of it has been contracted out to third-parties? I seem to remember there's a mention the Son'a are producing Ketracel White for the Dominion.

So it's not a "trade secret" held only by the Founders that dies with them.

Also, we know the Jem'Hadar will eventually die without it. How long that is I don't think is ever exactly spelled out. But before they die we do know they go crazy and attack everything around them.