He would have had to influenced or blocked her memories in some way though, but it's still weak since Kylo Ren is from the same lineage.
Rey in The Force Awakens (Possible Spoilers)
- Thread starter Captain Nebula
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He would have had to influenced or blocked her memories in some way though, but it's still weak since Kylo Ren is from the same lineage.
It landed somewhere and someone found it?
Anyway, I suspect Rey is the daughter of Luke Skywalker (and Mara Jade
).Anyway, Rey is badass. Arguably a little too badass (she basically has the skills of both Han and Luke), but you know what? Who cares. She's awesome. Her engineering skills make sense in her life as a scavenger. Her pilot skills make sense with her being force sensitive.
Her skills with her staff made it clear she could wield a lightsaber effectively as well (although she was still on the defensive in the fight with Kylo Ren for the most part).
To me, everything was well-explained. The only question is whether she's too good, not whether it makes sense for her to be that good.
Rey's not old enough to have been born right after ROTJ, the war is just stories to her.
Of course it is. You equated Ren of TFA to Vader of ANH. If your analysis cannot acknowledge the obvious differences in abilities, maturity, conviction, and training of the two characters... then yes, it is preposterous.Of course it's silly to compare Ren in TFA to Vader in ANH. That's a preposterous notion on just about every level.
As for Rey ... I still maintain the "laziness" of the critique using the Mary Sue label. It's too easy to simply dismiss a character wholesale by using it. Your posts improve mightily when actually discussing specific critiques of her abilities - all of which I have said would prove to be valid if her unusual strengths are not properly explained. But considering the mystery surrounding her character, considering the challenges she faced on Jakku, and her crisis of confidence and strength on Takodana, there's likely more than simple wish-fulfillment to her character.
Why is it preposterous? It isn't.
How do you know that it was "years and years"? Do you know exactly when Kylo Ren's training began? Do you know how much of it involved lightsaber training? Do you know when he fell to the Dark Side? Do you know that Snoke continued his lightsaber training after that? Why would a critique ignore Ren's obvious immaturity, rage, lack of focus, injuries, overconfidence, etc. ?
You said: "how would the rest of the trilogy have played out if in the first movie Luke had dispatched with Vader with ease in the first movie."
We know that Vader, by ANH, was a war hero Jedi Knight, fallen Jedi, and now Sith Lord. He had a decade-and-a-half of Jedi training, 2-3 years spent fighting in the Clone Wars, and a decade-and-a-half immersing himself in the Dark Side. All we know about Kylo Ren is that he was once part of Luke's Jedi Academy before turning to the Dark Side. We know little else about the specifics of his training, either from Luke or Snoke. And what we do see on screen is hardly convincing of his skills with a saber. That makes it certainly possible that he could be defeated by a focused, determined Force user.
Yes, I agree her abilities are unexplained. And, as I've said before, that will become problematic without a suitable explanation. But her character, right from the beginning, is shrouded in mystery. So while I understand that her abilities might be OP for some viewers, it's improper to jump to conclusions about the source of those abilities (which is what the lazy "Mary Sue" label does).
That shouldn't be too hard to do for a Master Jedi like Luke.
For the last time, it isn't preposterous. It's comparing the two roles the characters are playing int he story, Luke couldn't defeat anyone with a lightsaber in A New Hope and had barely used it.
We know that it has been a few years because Han lost the Falcon a few years ago and had been doing the smuggling for at least a few years, as well as knowing Luke has disappeared sometime ago. So Ren has at least a few years of training with the force, yet Ray Sue rolls up, has no training or even inkling about the force and defeats him by channeling the force. It's silly, it'd be silly if Luke went toe to toe with Vader even after Yoda trained him for a while and it's silly that someone who trained under Luke and has further training for years afterwards gets defeated by someone who hasn't even met or talked to a Jedi. She just knows how to do it all of a sudden, no explanation. Just like most things in the movie, she doesn't work towards it and has this ability from seemingly no where. It really isn't much different from Anakin in TPM, but maybe a little worse.
And again, it's not a direct comparison, don't be pedantic. The point is that when you compare the two, there is no way that Rey should ever have been able to touch Ren - this is without factoring anything in and that through out the movie, he has been able to freeze her and moments later threw her against a tree to KO her without a moments thought. If Luke with Yoda training had done to Vader what Rey had done to Ren, it'd have been very silly. She has just dispatched the main villain of the trilogy with no training.
And yeah, the Mary Sue label applies not just because of all the unexplained skills and abilities she is perfect at which doesn't seem to line up with what we know, but the fact she is pretty much a flawless character who hasn't worked towards anything in the movie. It was just suddenly part of her. Compare and contrast with Finn who was a pretty ineffectual mostly and his motives to save Poe were more from cowardice than anything else because he couldn't fly.
We know that it has been a few years because Han lost the Falcon a few years ago and had been doing the smuggling for at least a few years, as well as knowing Luke has disappeared sometime ago. So Ren has at least a few years of training with the force, yet Ray Sue rolls up, has no training or even inkling about the force and defeats him by channeling the force. It's silly, it'd be silly if Luke went toe to toe with Vader even after Yoda trained him for a while and it's silly that someone who trained under Luke and has further training for years afterwards gets defeated by someone who hasn't even met or talked to a Jedi. She just knows how to do it all of a sudden, no explanation. Just like most things in the movie, she doesn't work towards it and has this ability from seemingly no where. It really isn't much different from Anakin in TPM, but maybe a little worse.
And again, it's not a direct comparison, don't be pedantic. The point is that when you compare the two, there is no way that Rey should ever have been able to touch Ren - this is without factoring anything in and that through out the movie, he has been able to freeze her and moments later threw her against a tree to KO her without a moments thought. If Luke with Yoda training had done to Vader what Rey had done to Ren, it'd have been very silly. She has just dispatched the main villain of the trilogy with no training.
And yeah, the Mary Sue label applies not just because of all the unexplained skills and abilities she is perfect at which doesn't seem to line up with what we know, but the fact she is pretty much a flawless character who hasn't worked towards anything in the movie. It was just suddenly part of her. Compare and contrast with Finn who was a pretty ineffectual mostly and his motives to save Poe were more from cowardice than anything else because he couldn't fly.
Then don't make the direct comparison in the first place.
Except, if you're going to factor in Kylo Ren's strengths (as you've stated), you also have to factor in his weaknesses (as I have stated). And those weaknesses make him out to be something of an amateur lightsaber user. So despite his obvious strength with the Force, by his own actions, weaknesses, and instabilities, he doesn't exactly exude a great deal of competency in combat. As such, his overconfidence is a weakness (one of many), that is exploited by Rey.
Yes, Ren is the main villain. But he's not a very competent one. Certainly not emotionally, much less with a lightsaber.
There your analysis goes again with the "Mary Sue" label. It's a lazy catch-all. And while I disagree that Rey is "flawless," your analysis and critique is much more interesting and worthy of debate when it avoids that (clumsy) "Mary Sue" cliche.
She is the daughter of Luke (and another Jedi no doubt) and the grand-daughter of Anakin, plus, as I said earlier, Ren said she was more powerful in the force than she knew herself hence the abilities she was able to show.
Not only do we not know that, but Ren is also of the same lineage while being trained for years by two powerful force uers and not just some random shmuck.
He wasn't a random schmuck. But he was an overly emotional, immature, rage-filled, unfocused, unhinged, and wounded schmuck.
And, again, we have no idea about exactly what kind of training Ren actually received - either from Luke or Snoke. Certainly his connection to (the Dark Side of) the Force is powerful. So he's had training there. But from what we see on-screen, he isn't exactly a virtuoso with the lightsaber.
Leia seems to be the weaker of the two Skywalker twins in terms of the Force. That might have something to do with it.
I wonder, if they decide to go into Rey's lineage, will they talk about her mother? Luke and Leia's mother was basically glossed over the entire Original Trilogy. She only came up once to clue Leia in on her being related to Luke. (Will the fans get a proxy Mara Jade?)
We assume Rey is Luke's daughter. That makes sense given the nature of these stories (though we have a grandkid Skywalker in the film already) and how Anakin's lightsaber called out to her. Also that R2-D2 turned himself back on once she arrived at the base. If anyone knows anything, it would be R2. She could be something else (Poe's parents have a force sanative tree on their property from the comics given to them by Luke.)
Mind you that Luke is presently the only know "fully" trained Force user in the Galaxy. He is the last of the Jedi. There are no more Sith. So what we have left are partially trained minions, and posers that are force sensitive.
I wonder, if they decide to go into Rey's lineage, will they talk about her mother? Luke and Leia's mother was basically glossed over the entire Original Trilogy. She only came up once to clue Leia in on her being related to Luke. (Will the fans get a proxy Mara Jade?)
We assume Rey is Luke's daughter. That makes sense given the nature of these stories (though we have a grandkid Skywalker in the film already) and how Anakin's lightsaber called out to her. Also that R2-D2 turned himself back on once she arrived at the base. If anyone knows anything, it would be R2. She could be something else (Poe's parents have a force sanative tree on their property from the comics given to them by Luke.)
Mind you that Luke is presently the only know "fully" trained Force user in the Galaxy. He is the last of the Jedi. There are no more Sith. So what we have left are partially trained minions, and posers that are force sensitive.
Well no, I guess we don't, although she does have a recurrent dream of a group of islands in an ocean (where Luke was), when she touched the Saber, she had a vision of its past, there is also the little matter of the conversation between Ren and Snorke regarding her force abilities that she isn't even aware of, plus the title of the film, you know, the FORCE AWAKENS, it may not mean the force in general (just like a NEW HOPE which referred to Luke and PHANTOM MENACE which referred to Palps) and may just refer to the force awakening in Rey. which it did. So yeah, she may not be, but there are moon sized breadcrumbs pointing towards Rey being the child of Skywalker.
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I suspect Rey is the daughter of Luke Skywalker (and Mara Jade
Anyway, Rey is badass. Arguably a little too badass (she basically has the skills of both Han and Luke), but you know what? Who cares. She's awesome. Her engineering skills make sense in her life as a scavenger. Her pilot skills make sense with her being force sensitive.
Young Anakin used his gift instinctively to fly a podracer (something humans can't do) and may have been behind his engineering ability too. I see being able to tap into the force to do things as part of the gift for SOME users - certainly the more powerful ones. Specific training can obviously benefit individual skills but not all force users are trained.
A Skywalker ? It would be a real stretch. Are all the new cast to be relatives of the originals ?
Anyone see the Finn Calrissian 'spoiler' ?
Of course it's silly to compare Ren in TFA to Vader in ANH. That's a preposterous notion on just about every level.
As for Rey ... I still maintain the "laziness" of the critique using the Mary Sue label. It's too easy to simply dismiss a character wholesale by using it. Your posts improve mightily when actually discussing specific critiques of her abilities - all of which I have said would prove to be valid if her unusual strengths are not properly explained. But considering the mystery surrounding her character, considering the challenges she faced on Jakku, and her crisis of confidence and strength on Takodana, there's likely more than simple wish-fulfillment to her character.
Why is it preposterous? It isn't. What's preposterous is a girl with no experience or training suddenly beating someone with years and years of training. Luke had the upper hand physically on Vader, he had been training and he was no match for Vader at all, it's not comparing Ren to Vader, it's comparing the fights.
And the abilties were unexplained. How does being a scavenger also make you an expert pilot, expert blaster shot after only just being given a gun, expert kendo stick user, expert mechanic etc etc? She is a more competent pilot than Solo, a more competent mechanic than we have seen in any of the movies and without ever having handled a saber before or had any training, does a mind trick and defeats Kylo Ren. I mean the same logic should indicate that old woman she looked at is also a kick ass mechanic, sword fighter, gun fighter etc etc.
She was perfect, she did nothing wrong almost the whole movie and characters seem to regress in combat around her. It became really jarring when she beat Kylo Ren, and then she went off to find Luke. She made Kirk's ascent to Enterprise captain look well thought and pathed out.
As opposed to Luke a moisture farmer how does he become an expert pilot sure we have a few off hand mentions of his piloting skills but we aren't shown how he got those skills.
Given the enviroment I suspect it wasn't as if she could put her speeder into a shop for repairs assuming their was one and could afford it, so in that enviroment you would learn to fix things yourself. As for knowing how to use a stick, that ould have been learned over several years of having to defend herself.
It also took her several attempts to get the mind trick to work, so it's not as if was easy.
It also looked like they were scavging parts from the remains of the Battle that had taken place there, taking something apart can give you an idea of how things are put together
Of course it's silly to compare Ren in TFA to Vader in ANH. That's a preposterous notion on just about every level.
As for Rey ... I still maintain the "laziness" of the critique using the Mary Sue label. It's too easy to simply dismiss a character wholesale by using it. Your posts improve mightily when actually discussing specific critiques of her abilities - all of which I have said would prove to be valid if her unusual strengths are not properly explained. But considering the mystery surrounding her character, considering the challenges she faced on Jakku, and her crisis of confidence and strength on Takodana, there's likely more than simple wish-fulfillment to her character.
Why is it preposterous? It isn't. What's preposterous is a girl with no experience or training suddenly beating someone with years and years of training. Luke had the upper hand physically on Vader, he had been training and he was no match for Vader at all, it's not comparing Ren to Vader, it's comparing the fights.
And the abilties were unexplained. How does being a scavenger also make you an expert pilot, expert blaster shot after only just being given a gun, expert kendo stick user, expert mechanic etc etc? She is a more competent pilot than Solo, a more competent mechanic than we have seen in any of the movies and without ever having handled a saber before or had any training, does a mind trick and defeats Kylo Ren. I mean the same logic should indicate that old woman she looked at is also a kick ass mechanic, sword fighter, gun fighter etc etc.
She was perfect, she did nothing wrong almost the whole movie and characters seem to regress in combat around her. It became really jarring when she beat Kylo Ren, and then she went off to find Luke. She made Kirk's ascent to Enterprise captain look well thought and pathed out.
As opposed to Luke a moisture farmer how does he become an expert pilot sure we have a few off hand mentions of his piloting skills but we aren't shown how he got those skills.
Given the enviroment I suspect it wasn't as if she could put her speeder into a shop for repairs assuming their was one and could afford it, so in that enviroment you would learn to fix things yourself. As for knowing how to use a stick, that ould have been learned over several years of having to defend herself.
It also took her several attempts to get the mind trick to work, so it's not as if was easy.
It also looked like they were scavging parts from the remains of the Battle that had taken place there, taking something apart can give you an idea of how things are put together
Luke definitely isn't a Gary Sue, he is kind of an annoying and a whiny crybaby in Star Wars.
Luke had experience, it's said in dialogue that he regularly flew and practiced. He wanted to join his friend who we know was in the Rebellion, but Uncle was trying to keep him behind. Rey just used to sit there and dream of being a pilot, we don't really hear or see anything to indicate she regularly piloted ships nor does she appear to have had much opportunity to do so considering the small money she was paid. Yet she has considerable piloting abilities of a ship she has no experience with.
He spends the whole time in the Falcon being an annoying distraction to Han, "WHATS THAT LIGHT" "GO TO LIGHTSPEED NOW" etc while Rey is fixing it and piloting it better than Han ever did. They have an absolutely awful plan to save Princess Leia which ends up with Leia having to save their asses, then he almost dies to a garbage monster. Meanwhile Rey is busting herself out of prison using force abilties she probably shouldn't have knowledge of after 20 minutes earlier thinking the Jedi were a myth.
Now Luke defeats the Death Star, but he shows he isn't perfect when he does an attack run and at one point Wedge saves his bacon. He is then guided by Obi-Wan and even then Han saves his ass.
His character develops through all three movies into a more confident, mature character completely different from the one we have.
Even in the second movie, after training, he still wasn't exactly great at the force and Vader absolutely rekt him.
When talking to Han she can run though all the people the Falcon had been stolen by, though didn't know the ship was the Millennium Falcon. She also knew what modifications the last owner had made to it, having mentioned that she had argued against putting something in because it would do something to the hyperdrive. This suggests that she helped fixing the old piece of junk during her time on Jakku.
