Neelix & Kes

[Lynx]

^^
Sorry, that site is not my website.

As for the comment, the guy who maintains the website tried to be a bit optimistic about this case. As you can understand, I don't share his point about the outcome of the campaign.

Note also that the webmaster did come up with a story which would correct the damage to the character, a story which he sent to several people involved, including Jennifer Lien herself.

 

[exodus]

^^
Sorry, that site is not my website.

As for the comment, the guy who maintains the website tried to be a bit optimistic about this case. As you can understand, I don't share his point about the outcome of the campaign.

That's too bad.
As a Kes fan, he/she doesn't sound disgruntled by her return at all.
They honestly sound appreciative.

At least we now know where you get your "not the real Kes" ideas from too.
The biggest flaw in his/her story is that there isn't any other Voyager cast member in it.

 

[USSHermes]

The Kes/Neelix relationship was creepy - a hot young naive girl meets hairy space hobo.

I think kes let Neelix share her bunk once, as such that's why he's so crazy-jealous, he knows it's never going to happen again.

 

[Lynx]

^^
Sorry, that site is not my website.

As for the comment, the guy who maintains the website tried to be a bit optimistic about this case. As you can understand, I don't share his point about the outcome of the campaign.

That's too bad.
As a Kes fan, he/she doesn't sound disgruntled by her return at all.
They honestly sound appreciative.

At least we now know where you get your "not the real Kes" ideas from too.
The biggest flaw in his/her story is that there isn't any other Voyager cast member in it.

I don't think he was that happy over the outcome. If he had been that, he wouldn't have written a story in which the destruction of the character is undone.

I can see your point when it comes to the Voyager characters but I don't think they are absolutely necessary for this story. If they had bought the story and it would have been filmed, there would have been some space to sneak in the other characters as well.

 

[exodus]

^^
Sorry, that site is not my website.

As for the comment, the guy who maintains the website tried to be a bit optimistic about this case. As you can understand, I don't share his point about the outcome of the campaign.

That's too bad.
As a Kes fan, he/she doesn't sound disgruntled by her return at all.
They honestly sound appreciative.

At least we now know where you get your "not the real Kes" ideas from too.
The biggest flaw in his/her story is that there isn't any other Voyager cast member in it.

I don't think he was that happy over the outcome. If he had been that, he wouldn't have written a story in which the destruction of the character is undone.

Undone and turned into a superhero.
It went from one extreme to another with no lesson learned or team work from the Voyager cast. Not only do the Ocampa defeat Susperia with no explaination how, they send Voyager home and go back to Ocampa to fight the Kazon. Can she catch bullets with her teeth too?

Come on, if it was cheesy to have Kes' powers make her leave Voyager, how is her doing all that any better? Heck, why would Kes need to return to Voyager to begin with? That story makes her Godlike.

I would have loved to see Mulgrews reaction at reading how the last ep. of the series focuses totally on a character that has been on the show in 4 years and there isn't one part where Janeway is ever the focus. I have no doubt that story never would have seen the light of day.

 

[Lynx]

That's too bad.
As a Kes fan, he/she doesn't sound disgruntled by her return at all.
They honestly sound appreciative.

At least we now know where you get your "not the real Kes" ideas from too.
The biggest flaw in his/her story is that there isn't any other Voyager cast member in it.

I don't think he was that happy over the outcome. If he had been that, he wouldn't have written a story in which the destruction of the character is undone.

Undone and turned into a superhero.
It went from one extreme to another with no lesson learned or team work from the Voyager cast. Not only do the Ocampa defeat Susperia with no explaination how, they send Voyager home and go back to Ocampa to fight the Kazon. Can she catch bullets with her teeth too?

Come on, if it was cheesy to have Kes' powers make her leave Voyager, how is her doing all that any better? Heck, why would Kes need to return to Voyager to begin with? That story makes her Godlike.

I would have loved to see Mulgrews reaction at reading how the last ep. of the series focuses totally on a character that has been on the show in 4 years and there isn't one part where Janeway is ever the focus. I have no doubt that story never would have seen the light of day.

Of course! Someone shows the skill to come up with a good story in which the damage to the character is undone and of course this author must be ridiculed for that.

Besides that, constantly laughing at another poster is very rude.

I must also state that I prefer this story before the sick, perverted crap which Braga and his boys came up with.

As for Mulgrew, since she and Lien were good friends, I don't think that she would have mind if Lien would have had a share of the spotlight in this story. After all, Mulgrew had to share the spotlight with Ryan for four seasons.

 

[exodus]

I don't think he was that happy over the outcome. If he had been that, he wouldn't have written a story in which the destruction of the character is undone.

Undone and turned into a superhero.
It went from one extreme to another with no lesson learned or team work from the Voyager cast. Not only do the Ocampa defeat Susperia with no explaination how, they send Voyager home and go back to Ocampa to fight the Kazon. Can she catch bullets with her teeth too?

Come on, if it was cheesy to have Kes' powers make her leave Voyager, how is her doing all that any better? Heck, why would Kes need to return to Voyager to begin with? That story makes her Godlike.

I would have loved to see Mulgrews reaction at reading how the last ep. of the series focuses totally on a character that has been on the show in 4 years and there isn't one part where Janeway is ever the focus. I have no doubt that story never would have seen the light of day.

Of course! Someone shows the skill to come up with a good story in which the damage to the character is undone and of course this author must be ridiculed for that.

Besides that, constantly laughing at another poster is very rude.

I must also state that I prefer this story before the sick, perverted crap which Braga and his boys came up with.

As for Mulgrew, since she and Lien were good friends, I don't think that she would have mind if Lien would have had a share of the spotlight in this story. After all, Mulgrew had to share the spotlight with Ryan for four seasons.

Sorry, I always thought we were free to express our opinions here even if they're in conflict with someone elses. Nobody denies you the right to yours even if they don't agree with it, do they? Turning Kes into a superhero is not my idea of a good story and I'm free to express it. As far as I know, the writer of the story isn't a poster and I laugh because I find the story over the top.


Mulgrew fought for the right to have equal screen to with Ryan. It's one of the many conflicts Mulgrew had with the cast behind the scenes, something you yourself and most die-hard fans are very much aware of.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I totally agree on your statement about expressing opinions which is something we are doing on this board and other boards as well. However, I did find the ridiculing of that story slightly "over the top", to say the least.

Note also that what we see on that site is a resume of the story, not the whole story. The Voyager crew is mentioned several times so I guess that there would have been a lot of room for them if this story had been transformed into an episode.

As for Mulgrew fighting for the right to have equal screen time with Ryan, well Mulgrew's character was supposed to be the main character of the show and Mulgrew was hired under those conditions so I understand that she fought for her place there. I wonder what Patrick Stewart should have said if they had brought in the guy who played Hercules or some similar actor and made that actor's character the main star on TNG.

Turning Kes into a superhero is not my intention either, therefore I hated the silly scenario in "The Gift" and "Fury". What makes me like the scenario in the story at the website is that it repairs the damage made to the character in "Fury", therefore I can live with the super-powewrs in that story. In my own "Kes come-back" story which I wrote almost a year before "Fury" was aired in the US (and more than a year over here) she was restored back to normal with a prolonged lifespan and only the powers she had in episodes like "Cold Fire" and "Persistance Of Vision" which I think were enough for the character.

 

[exodus]

^^
I totally agree on your statement about expressing opinions which is something we are doing on this board and other boards as well. However, I did find the ridiculing of that story slightly "over the top", to say the least.

I think if the roles were reversed and it was Seven of Nine fighting off Susperia, fighting off the Kazon & sending Voyager home, I think allot of folks here (yourself included) would be crying foul and saying such a scenerio was over the top and laughing at it too.

Let's be fair.

I have no issues with Kes being how she was on "Coldfire", it's one of the few Kes stories I do like. However, I don't might "Fury" either. I think it's natural that Kes should age and I liked the concept of "absolute power corrupts absolutely". People in the Delta Quad. feared Voyager because it was a powerful ship, it makes sense that every where Kes went they'd fear her due to the power she had. Anybody rejected enough times is bound to grow bitter at some point.

Besides, Kes in "Fury" was right. Both Janeway & Tuvok knew what Kes would become if they encouraged her to use her powers. She told them they brought out her "dark impulses" and she feared that, they didn't know enough about Ocampan mental abilities and still kept incouraging her. So all of that caused her to loose herself, just like Capt. Braxton & Ransom lost themselves and forgot what they originally believed in. Just like in "Endgame" Adm. Janeway forgot herself. The Vidiians too.

It's the curse of the Delta Quaderant.
People loose their minds under extreme duress.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I totally agree on your statement about expressing opinions which is something we are doing on this board and other boards as well. However, I did find the ridiculing of that story slightly "over the top", to say the least.

I think if the roles were reversed and it was Seven of Nine fighting off Susperia, fighting off the Kazon & sending Voyager home, I think allot of folks here (yourself included) would be crying foul and saying such a scenerio was over the top and laughing at it too.

Let's be fair.

I have no issues with Kes being how she was on "Coldfire", it's one of the few Kes stories I do like. However, I don't might "Fury" either. I think it's natural that Kes should age and I liked the concept of "absolute power corrupts absolutely". People in the Delta Quad. feared Voyager because it was a powerful ship, it makes sense that every where Kes went they'd fear her due to the power she had. Anybody rejected enough times is bound to grow bitter at some point.

Besides, Kes in "Fury" was right. Both Janeway & Tuvok knew what Kes would become if they encouraged her to use her powers. She told them they brought out her "dark impulses" and she feared that, they didn't know enough about Ocampan mental abilities and still kept incouraging her. So all of that caused her to loose herself, just like Capt. Braxton & Ransom lost themselves and forgot what they originally believed in. Just like in "Endgame" Adm. Janeway forgot herself. The Vidiians too.

It's the curse of the Delta Quaderant.
People loose their minds under extreme duress.

Didn't Seven do that all the time? Constantly being super-woman and saving the ship?

And don't forget that it was those in charge of the show who created the "super-being" thing when it comes to Kes. The author of the story on the website simply stayed true to "canon" and took of from the scenario in "Fury".

No, I don't buy that "character becoming evil" and "power corrupts" thing. Not in this case because Kes was the least person on that ship with any ability to go crazy. If they wanted a nuthead among the main characters, then there were other, more suitable character. Like Torres with her lousy temper, Seven with her troubled background, maybe Tuvok losing his Vulcan control. Or maybe Vorik who did have it there already. Or why not Janeway with all the responsibilities for the ship and the crew.

Kes had already showed that she, if anyone could withstand evil temptation. We could see that in episodes like "Cold Fire", "Warlord" and "Darkling". So she was the last one on that ship who would become evil.

Kes was definitely the wrong character to ruin. It would be like making a movie in which Mother Teresa is portrayed as a prostitute or James Bond revealed as a KGB spy. Just totally wrong.

If Tuvok and Janeway "knew what Kes could become", why did they encourage her to continue her development of her powers, I mean Tuvok actually did set of time to help Kes doing that? Not to mention that Kes herself said that she "didn't want to see that part of herself again" after the events in "Cold Fire". I mean, if I had a feeling that a friend of mine would become dangerous while dabbling with black magic or something like that, I woud definitely not encourage the person to continue with that. No, it doesn't make sense. Neither Janeway nor Tuvok was that stupid. The comments from the imposter in "Fury" is obviously an after-construction, just like many other of Braga's statements and ideas.

Note also that Kes powers were not dangerous until the ridiculous events in "The Gift", and they were so because those in charge wanted to get rid of the character as soon as possible and saw a ridiculous increase of the powers as a way to write out the character as soon as possible.

As for "Fury", I see no connection with any events in seasons 1-3. That episode because those in charge wanted to finally ruin a character they disliked and to show the finger to those ungrateful fans who commited blasphemy by questioning the decision to kick her out in the first place and wanting the character back as a permanent member of the crew.

As for "Fury", only those who hate the character Kes can like that episode.

 

[exodus]

^^
I totally agree on your statement about expressing opinions which is something we are doing on this board and other boards as well. However, I did find the ridiculing of that story slightly "over the top", to say the least.

I think if the roles were reversed and it was Seven of Nine fighting off Susperia, fighting off the Kazon & sending Voyager home, I think allot of folks here (yourself included) would be crying foul and saying such a scenerio was over the top and laughing at it too.

Let's be fair.

I have no issues with Kes being how she was on "Coldfire", it's one of the few Kes stories I do like. However, I don't might "Fury" either. I think it's natural that Kes should age and I liked the concept of "absolute power corrupts absolutely". People in the Delta Quad. feared Voyager because it was a powerful ship, it makes sense that every where Kes went they'd fear her due to the power she had. Anybody rejected enough times is bound to grow bitter at some point.

Besides, Kes in "Fury" was right. Both Janeway & Tuvok knew what Kes would become if they encouraged her to use her powers. She told them they brought out her "dark impulses" and she feared that, they didn't know enough about Ocampan mental abilities and still kept incouraging her. So all of that caused her to loose herself, just like Capt. Braxton & Ransom lost themselves and forgot what they originally believed in. Just like in "Endgame" Adm. Janeway forgot herself. The Vidiians too.

It's the curse of the Delta Quaderant.
People loose their minds under extreme duress.

Didn't Seven do that all the time? Constantly being super-woman and saving the ship?

And don't forget that it was those in charge of the show who created the "super-being" thing when it comes to Kes. The author of the story on the website simply stayed true to "canon" and took of from the scenario in "Fury".

No, I don't buy that "character becoming evil" and "power corrupts" thing. Not in this case because Kes was the least person on that ship with any ability to go crazy. If they wanted a nuthead among the main characters, then there were other, more suitable character. Like Torres with her lousy temper, Seven with her troubled background, maybe Tuvok losing his Vulcan control. Or maybe Vorik who did have it there already. Or why not Janeway with all the responsibilities for the ship and the crew.

Kes had already showed that she, if anyone could withstand evil temptation. We could see that in episodes like "Cold Fire", "Warlord" and "Darkling". So she was the last one on that ship who would become evil.

Kes was definitely the wrong character to ruin. It would be like making a movie in which Mother Teresa is portrayed as a prostitute or James Bond revealed as a KGB spy. Just totally wrong.

If Tuvok and Janeway "knew what Kes could become", why did they encourage her to continue her development of her powers, I mean Tuvok actually did set of time to help Kes doing that? Not to mention that Kes herself said that she "didn't want to see that part of herself again" after the events in "Cold Fire". I mean, if I had a feeling that a friend of mine would become dangerous while dabbling with black magic or something like that, I woud definitely not encourage the person to continue with that. No, it doesn't make sense. Neither Janeway nor Tuvok was that stupid. The comments from the imposter in "Fury" is obviously an after-construction, just like many other of Braga's statements and ideas.

Note also that Kes powers were not dangerous until the ridiculous events in "The Gift", and they were so because those in charge wanted to get rid of the character as soon as possible and saw a ridiculous increase of the powers as a way to write out the character as soon as possible.

As for "Fury", I see no connection with any events in seasons 1-3. That episode because those in charge wanted to finally ruin a character they disliked and to show the finger to those ungrateful fans who commited blasphemy by questioning the decision to kick her out in the first place and wanting the character back as a permanent member of the crew.

As for "Fury", only those who hate the character Kes can like that episode.

I'm sorry but I guess it doesn't matter how you think the character should be, by your own admission the Kes haters still win. "The Gift" & "Fury" will always be canon, will always be episodes of Voyager and too a great many will always be Kes' fate because Kes is the creation of the writers. If they wanted Kes to give into temptation, then we really don't have much say in the matter. As it's written, so shall it be. Braga has always been open about his mistakes, he's got no reason to lie about this one single episode just to please a handful of people. He stuck with Trek thru good & bad, thick & thin. He didn't abandon it just because everything didn't go his way all the time. So if liking the ep. you don't can only make one a Kes hater, then I think many can live soundly with that. Braga at least knows when to man up and took all the nasty and often unreasonable comments hurled his way, IMO that shows loyality & integrity for his work. As far as "ungrateful fans", that speaks for itself.

 

[Akiraprise]

Forever locked in MORTAL KOMBAT!

 

[exodus]

Forever locked in MORTAL KOMBAT!

Ever since "Big Trouble in Little China", I kinda always wanted to be Raiden!

 

[Akiraprise]

Raiden is the best character. It's only natural to want to be him. I always wanted to play as Raiden in the games.

 

[exodus]

Raiden is the best character. It's only natural to want to be him. I always wanted to play as Raiden in the games.

See, I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Lynx]

I'm sorry but I guess it doesn't matter how you think the character should be, by your own admission the Kes haters still win. "The Gift" & "Fury" will always be canon, will always be episodes of Voyager and too a great many will always be Kes' fate because Kes is the creation of the writers. If they wanted Kes to give into temptation, then we really don't have much say in the matter. As it's written, so shall it be. Braga has always been open about his mistakes, he's got no reason to lie about this one single episode just to please a handful of people. He stuck with Trek thru good & bad, thick & thin. He didn't abandon it just because everything didn't go his way all the time. So if liking the ep. you don't can only make one a Kes hater, then I think many can live soundly with that. Braga at least knows when to man up and took all the nasty and often unreasonable comments hurled his way, IMO that shows loyality & integrity for his work. As far as "ungrateful fans", that speaks for itself.

Well, you know where I think that Braga and his gentle friends can stuff their flawed canon and where they can go. Fortunately they are gone from Trek now and that's the only positive thing I can say about the current development of Star Trek.

As for liking the episode or not, it's not about "liking an episode which I dislike" because there are episodes I dislike which other people like and I don't have any problem with that but I do think that liking and enjoying the senseless character destruction in that episode is only possible if you hate or dislike the character.

And honestly, I get the impression that you don't have much affection for neither the character nor the actress, otherwise we wouldn't have these discussions.

As for "knowing how to man up" and stand for one's own actions, work, creations or whatever, that's exactly what I'm doing too!

 

[Lynx]

Forever locked in MORTAL KOMBAT!

Reminds me of the Hachai and the P'Nir in the Voyager book "Ragnarok". They had been fighting for hundreds of years.

 

[Voyagerian]

Well, I just today became aware of this discussion path re Kes herself, and, having read the posts, I, as an ardent Kesfan, guess I'll weigh in...I was very eager to see Jen return even for one ep back in 2000-but I was shocked at how they chose to do this. Time has tempered my reaction, but I still would not choose to have seen this the way they brought her back. It may have been dramatic, and perhaps it gave Jen a chance to do something different with the character, strictly from an actress' perspective...but part of me regrets, still, how this was done...and I have the right, as others do to differ with me, to feel this way, as does Lynx, to whatever extent, particularly if one appreciates the personality traits and soul, if you will, of Kes the character.I think it's far easier to see the detriment of Fury with that perspective. One other problem with it, is that it makes no sense, as Lynx has purported, to have the others supporting a pursuit of her mental abilities-when, according to the timeline, FutureKes arrived on Voyager in her timetrip in what, just a handfull of months into the journey...and even if Janeway over time let the tragic events in that past-altered grow less immediate in her mind by the 'repeat' at the end of the ep, come now...Kathryn had ample forewarning of the coming events-at least as she knew they would unfold, and would hardly let someone she regarded as a surrogate daughter pursue something that would ultimately alter her life tragically, much less Tuvok her teacher from early on ....so that element is problematic, at best. As for making her a villain, it may have intrigued other fans, but I would not have been one of them. I recall reading Fuller's intent in ST The Mag. Baloney. Alomost better Jen wasn't on STV, than to totally corrupt her charcter. So there's MY op. Cold Fire may have seen her tempted-but she never gave in to that, and Tuvok counseled her of his own vigilance with the power of emotion..and it was her eventual Transformance and resultant isolation, fear, and pain that made her 'forget' who she was...and this is the heart of why the ep is so decried among Kesfans-and yes they do exist, folks. I have also devised my own fanfic means of giving her her life back-and more-in the STV world, but I think I'll forego the option of public sharing...evidenced further by the laughter at someone's own fanfic concept. Regardless of creative difference, that's not appropriate, or 'IDIC' enough here.

 

[exodus]

I'm sorry but I guess it doesn't matter how you think the character should be, by your own admission the Kes haters still win. "The Gift" & "Fury" will always be canon, will always be episodes of Voyager and too a great many will always be Kes' fate because Kes is the creation of the writers. If they wanted Kes to give into temptation, then we really don't have much say in the matter. As it's written, so shall it be. Braga has always been open about his mistakes, he's got no reason to lie about this one single episode just to please a handful of people. He stuck with Trek thru good & bad, thick & thin. He didn't abandon it just because everything didn't go his way all the time. So if liking the ep. you don't can only make one a Kes hater, then I think many can live soundly with that. Braga at least knows when to man up and took all the nasty and often unreasonable comments hurled his way, IMO that shows loyality & integrity for his work. As far as "ungrateful fans", that speaks for itself.

Well, you know where I think that Braga and his gentle friends can stuff their flawed canon and where they can go. Fortunately they are gone from Trek now and that's the only positive thing I can say about the current development of Star Trek.

As for liking the episode or not, it's not about "liking an episode which I dislike" because there are episodes I dislike which other people like and I don't have any problem with that but I do think that liking and enjoying the senseless character destruction in that episode is only possible if you hate or dislike the character.

And honestly, I get the impression that you don't have much affection for neither the character nor the actress, otherwise we wouldn't have these discussions.

As for "knowing how to man up" and stand for one's own actions, work, creations or whatever, that's exactly what I'm doing too!

You can assume all you wish, especially next time you pat yourself on the back for the "Kes as councilor" idea because you & I know who's idea that was first. Not so bad for a hater, huh?

It's a debate about the character, you personal opinions of me due to those opinions are petty and irrelevant. So please, keep it in the pocket. Liking "Fury" automatically makes someone a Kes hater is a pretty limited and self depleating point of view because IMO is shows a lack of being open minded.

I like the episode because it's about the character suffering from Alzheimer's. We were watching the little girl we knew would enter the end of her life. The Golden Years aren't always golden. It's sad but it's real and it's true.

She wants to kill the Voyager crew because she's going thru the Mor-Elogium and has dementia. She's old and her memories are all fucked up.

The first clue: She didn't remember Tom's name.

The second was her rambling in the cargo bay about how Voyager the stole her from Ocampia and then tossed her out. She getting her facts wrong and incoherent. (MESSAGE!!)

Janeway keeps asking Kes: What are you talking about?
Kes, that never happened?

Kes isn't getting her facts straight because she can't remember clearly. Her mind is powerful but she's old and getting forgetful.

Young Kes's holo-recording

"I'm the little girl you came back to save but this is not who you are and this is not what you were about. It was your choice to use you abilities and it was your choice to leave Voyager. Remember who you are. Remember me!"

Janeway explains when they made the recording blah-blah-blah.

Now this is important; you have to watch Jen Lien's face. She looks at Janeway and you can see that she doesn't know who she is.....then you see the lightbulb go on and she smiles!! Her first words are: "I remember, now I remember."
...and she laughs.(Old Kes is back)

She continues: "These last few years, so much confusion(SENILE!!).......and pain. I'd forgotten, buried the memories.

However it's not done, last clue.
Before she beams off, her exchange with Neelix:
"Do you see anyone you know?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now)
Neelix: "Only you."

Kes gets on the transporter padd and just before she completely beams out, she turns and smiles at Neelix. She just remembered him.

It's not a happy story but part of having a character like Kes on the show was to watch her grow up and eventually die. Voyager IMO gave us a "futuristic" but realistic tale of a real fact of life. Getting old is not pretty.

 

[kimc]

I wonder what Patrick Stewart should have said if they had brought in the guy who played Hercules or some similar actor and made that actor's character the main star on TNG.

Now there's an interesting question. I can't imagine he would be too happy with that.