Neelix & Kes

[Guy Gardener]

One of my insane theories is that the one child limitation is part of the unforgivable debt the Nacene inflicted on these people, because each generation has to be half the size of the last until there's just one kid left wondering what the word "crowd" means.

An opposing theory is that just because the Ocampa can only get pregnant once, it does't mean that they can only have one child per perpregnancy. If triplets or quadruplets were the norm, then their society would have a chance to grow.

Then of course the gender split may not be 50/50, and they as a people may not be monogomous, because kes's mother had her at the age of three but her father died near our girl's 1st birthday, so either her father died in an accident or men reach their "single" fertile moment near the end of their 8th year, which would suggest that emotional couplings between Ocampa would have males as second husbands raising other mens children and...

God help me.

Anyone else connected the dots on this one and come up with "Lolita"?

Well, that would be if the ocampan kids weren't mature enough to leave home by their first birthday when their pappies were shuffling off their mortal coils, but that was a dark place.

Imagine you had to bed and be trained to be a good husband by your eventual motherinlaw, who is also currently your first wife, waiting for your oneday wife to come of a child bearing age, who you are raising as your child.

I have altogether been watching far too much LEXX of late.

 

[JoeZhang]

I can only imagine I am not the only person who finds this couple extremely annoying.

I've been re-watching VOY and I'm on season 2 now. What is the point of Neelix & Kes' relationship? They don't even seem like a couple at all, at least on Kes' part she seems to just bock Neelix out when ever he opens his mouth which I totally understand. Hearing Neelix call Kes "sweetie" is like nails on a chalk board to me. I cringe it just sounds so awkward. Is it just me or Neelix seems like Kes' cooky uncle or dad not anything like a boyfriend? It's just a very bizarre relationship that is totally irrelevant to everything at least from what I am seeing at this point I don't remember later episodes.

The only vibe I got from Neelix was that he should have been on the nonce jotter. Notice how later in the show, he gets friendly with the borg kids and then the baby disappears? *this* is why he jumps ship and hooks up with his next victim.

 

[exodus]

I guess it's just one more reason they wrote her out the show.

Any excuse

Just the facts, ma'am. Just the facts.

 

[You_Guyz]

Eh, I think there were just inherent problems with Kes' character. If they really wanted to sell us on the "Shorter lifespan" thing, they should've introduced her as a kid and then aged the character once every season (changing the actress as she went from kid to teen, then from teen to adult).

It sounds nice in theory but I'm not sure anyone would have liked it.

 

[Anwar]

Why not? They would've been prepared for it if they advertised her character concept as such before the show began, and it would've been a subversion of the "smart kid" thing done with Wesley. She starts out as a little kid in the background and as she gets older and her powers start to manifest she naturally and organically grows as a character and in importance to the show.

 

[exodus]

Why not? They would've been prepared for it if they advertised her character concept as such before the show began, and it would've been a subversion of the "smart kid" thing done with Wesley. She starts out as a little kid in the background and as she gets older and her powers start to manifest she naturally and organically grows as a character and in importance to the show.

I think it might have worked better by cutting down on the confusion between her phyical age vs. her mental age. It also might have made her more interesting for the audience because we'd be wondering what she'd look like each time we saw her.

Lets face it, much of the audience didn't warm up to her. I think any constructive changes to improve Kes would have been welcomed.

 

[Lynx]

Eh, I think there were just inherent problems with Kes' character. If they really wanted to sell us on the "Shorter lifespan" thing, they should've introduced her as a kid and then aged the character once every season (changing the actress as she went from kid to teen, then from teen to adult).

It sounds nice in theory but I'm not sure anyone would have liked it.

Neither do I.

It's quite obvious that those in charge more and less gave up on that short lifespan even before the first episode was filmed since they must have realized that the concept didn't work. They did only seem to use the lifespan thing for certain stories. Between those stories, it was hardly mentioned at all.

Kes wasn't the most popular member of the main crew but she wasn't unpopular either. It looks like she have more fans than Neelix and Kim.

 

[exodus]

Kes wasn't the most popular member of the main crew but she wasn't unpopular either. It looks like she have more fans than Neelix and Kim.

She very well may have gained a few due to her departure.
However, unfortunately it was a little too late to save her from being removed from the show.
It was important for whatever fans she had to support her & the show while she was on. If they had, she would of had a better fighting chance at staying.

 

[Lynx]

^^
It was a bit difficult to fight for her remaining in the series when almost all of us Kes fans didn't know anything about her going to be dumped until "The Gift".

And look what happened when some of us staged a letter campaign to have her back! We got "Fury" and the ultimate destruction of the character as a "reward" for our attempts.

 

[exodus]

^^
It was a bit difficult to fight for her remaining in the series when almost all of us Kes fans didn't know anything about her going to be dumped until "The Gift".

And look what happened when some of us staged a letter campaign to have her back! We got "Fury" and the ultimate destruction of the character as a "reward" for our attempts.

Maybe because you're overseas and the actors & Cons. don't get over there often enough but Lien leaving was a big buzz at Trek Cons. here in the States at least a year before the official announcement was made. I think her odd/uneasy behavior at Cons didn't help her case either.

Once again, "Fury" wasn't made to upset fans. It was simple away to answer what happened to Kes after she left. Besides, Braga often states that it was his original idea to have Kes go all "Dark Phoenix" if the character stayed on Voyager anyway. So it wasn't in reply to fans letters but rather an idea they had thrown around since the beginning. So even if Kes stayed all 7s, "Fury" was going to be her fate anyway.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I remember it being a "buzz" in the fall of 97, lot of discussion why and so. But it was around the time when season 4 was starting to be aired.

"Fury" did insult a lot of people, especially those who had participated in the campaign.

According to Braga, he, Bryan Fuller and Michael Piller spent a Christmas coming up with that horrible story. It was more than one year after the campaign to have Kes re-instated as a regular character on the show had started so I guess that Braga and his buddies did know what they were doing.

As for the "dark Phoenix" thing, it seems like an after-construction made by Braga to justify the character destruction when he found out that "Fury" wasn't that well-received. During seasons 4 and 5, there were no mentioning at all about any "Dark Phoenix" plot.

 

[snakespeare]

What are we supposed to learn from Neelix and Kes? That jealousy is its own punishment? That you can't set your cap for the first man who comes along in a fancy starship, or you will eventually seek another? That having is not loving? Maybe, but I doubt that anyone who didn't already know it could learn it from a TV show.

I guess Neelix had to see her go incorporeal before he could ever accept that she was just too good for him.

 

[exodus]

^^
I remember it being a "buzz" in the fall of 97, lot of discussion why and so. But it was around the time when season 4 was starting to be aired.

"Fury" did insult a lot of people, especially those who had participated in the campaign.

According to Braga, he, Bryan Fuller and Michael Piller spent a Christmas coming up with that horrible story. It was more than one year after the campaign to have Kes re-instated as a regular character on the show had started so I guess that Braga and his buddies did know what they were doing.

As for the "dark Phoenix" thing, it seems like an after-construction made by Braga to justify the character destruction when he found out that "Fury" wasn't that well-received. During seasons 4 and 5, there were no mentioning at all about any "Dark Phoenix" plot.

If it was an after thought, then it wouldn't be stated that he always had a plan to make Kes a villain during an interview to Star Trek: The Magazine & Communicator a month before the ep. aired. So no, Braga had no idea "Fury" wasn't going to be well recieved. Who could possablly know what types of eps. the audience will or won't like until they're aired? If they knew that, a few TNG eps and DS9's first two seasons, Threshold, the Fight & Tsunkatiz(sp?) wouldn't exist either.

Besides, wasn't Piller or Fuller already long gone from writing for Trek when "Fury" was filmed? So, I think that's proof the story/idea did indeed sit around for years before it saw the light of day. Therefore the "Dark Phoenix" idea couldn't have been an after thought.

Why would there be mention of a "Dark Phoenix" story plot during seasons Kes wasn't a part of?

 

[Guy Gardener]

naomi seemed like a short lifer too.

Not as short, but short.


Scarlett Pomers
Brooke Stephens (young Naomi)
Vanessa Branch (future Naomi)]
Unknown performer (baby Naomi)
At least four actresses, because i really wouldn't have trusted Voyagers production staff to have used the same baby over and over again... but the leap between Brooke and scarlet was palpable.

Hmmm?

Did Naomi inherit all the Kes parts in the later scripts?

Which'd mean that Seven as "Action-chick" would have stolen the bluster and thunder of being the go to person from perhaps Tom, or more likely B'Elanna, since that was obviously who B'Elanna was even if she was "billed" so much lower.

 

[You_Guyz]

I wonder why they replaced the actress for Naomi.

 

[Lynx]

^^
I remember it being a "buzz" in the fall of 97, lot of discussion why and so. But it was around the time when season 4 was starting to be aired.

"Fury" did insult a lot of people, especially those who had participated in the campaign.

According to Braga, he, Bryan Fuller and Michael Piller spent a Christmas coming up with that horrible story. It was more than one year after the campaign to have Kes re-instated as a regular character on the show had started so I guess that Braga and his buddies did know what they were doing.

As for the "dark Phoenix" thing, it seems like an after-construction made by Braga to justify the character destruction when he found out that "Fury" wasn't that well-received. During seasons 4 and 5, there were no mentioning at all about any "Dark Phoenix" plot.

If it was an after thought, then it wouldn't be stated that he always had a plan to make Kes a villain during an interview to Star Trek: The Magazine & Communicator a month before the ep. aired. So no, Braga had no idea "Fury" wasn't going to be well recieved. Who could possablly know what types of eps. the audience will or won't like until they're aired? If they knew that, a few TNG eps and DS9's first two seasons, Threshold, the Fight & Tsunkatiz(sp?) wouldn't exist either.

Besides, wasn't Piller or Fuller already long gone from writing for Trek when "Fury" was filmed? So, I think that's proof the story/idea did indeed sit around for years before it saw the light of day. Therefore the "Dark Phoenix" idea couldn't have been an after thought.

Why would there be mention of a "Dark Phoenix" story plot during seasons Kes wasn't a part of?

Braga came up with his explanation around the same time "Fury" was aired, which might be an after-construction. If he have had any plans to turn the Kes story into some weak "Dark Phoenix" copy, then why didn't they keep Kes instead of dumping her? It would have been more realistic if that scenario had taken place during seasons 4-6 instead of bringing back a dumped character for total destruction after more than two years absence.

If Braga is a smart guy (which I actually think he is), then he probably did know that the Kes fans wouldnt like the episode and in that case it was convenient to come up with something like "oh, we always planned to make the character a bad person". I think he knew exactly what he was doing and what the resuld would be.

According to IMDB, Bryan Fuller is listed as writer and executive story editor for "Fury". He's also listed as co-producer for a couple of episodes made after "Fury".

What I know, the decision to bring back Kes for the final destruction in a season 6 episode was taken during the end of season 5 or between seasons 5 or 6. I remember seeing the first hints of a Kes comeback in the spring of 2000.

As for the letter campaign to have Kes re-instated as a regular character, it started in 1998.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What took the meat out of Fury for me is that she had no reason to kill them all and they effortlessly reminded her of that. The emotional flipflop was about as complicated as losing and finding your keys.

What about the save Kim letter campaign?

because I assume that we were told that Kim was going.

Bye bye Wang.

It seemed obvious that they were going to frack him to pay for the new blond?

How many dozen people wrote in to save him?

AND HE WAS SAVED!!!!

Unintential misdirection. Maybe if the plan was to get rid of Jennifer wasn't so last minute, that it was telegraphed in Scorpion for all to see, the "Kas-fans" could have mobilized and shifted the shitcanning to another character with months to spare?

 

[exodus]

^^
I remember it being a "buzz" in the fall of 97, lot of discussion why and so. But it was around the time when season 4 was starting to be aired.

"Fury" did insult a lot of people, especially those who had participated in the campaign.

According to Braga, he, Bryan Fuller and Michael Piller spent a Christmas coming up with that horrible story. It was more than one year after the campaign to have Kes re-instated as a regular character on the show had started so I guess that Braga and his buddies did know what they were doing.

As for the "dark Phoenix" thing, it seems like an after-construction made by Braga to justify the character destruction when he found out that "Fury" wasn't that well-received. During seasons 4 and 5, there were no mentioning at all about any "Dark Phoenix" plot.

If it was an after thought, then it wouldn't be stated that he always had a plan to make Kes a villain during an interview to Star Trek: The Magazine & Communicator a month before the ep. aired. So no, Braga had no idea "Fury" wasn't going to be well recieved. Who could possablly know what types of eps. the audience will or won't like until they're aired? If they knew that, a few TNG eps and DS9's first two seasons, Threshold, the Fight & Tsunkatiz(sp?) wouldn't exist either.

Besides, wasn't Piller or Fuller already long gone from writing for Trek when "Fury" was filmed? So, I think that's proof the story/idea did indeed sit around for years before it saw the light of day. Therefore the "Dark Phoenix" idea couldn't have been an after thought.

Why would there be mention of a "Dark Phoenix" story plot during seasons Kes wasn't a part of?

Braga came up with his explanation around the same time "Fury" was aired, which might be an after-construction. If he have had any plans to turn the Kes story into some weak "Dark Phoenix" copy, then why didn't they keep Kes instead of dumping her? It would have been more realistic if that scenario had taken place during seasons 4-6 instead of bringing back a dumped character for total destruction after more than two years absence.

If Braga is a smart guy (which I actually think he is), then he probably did know that the Kes fans wouldnt like the episode and in that case it was convenient to come up with something like "oh, we always planned to make the character a bad person". I think he knew exactly what he was doing and what the resuld would be.

Whatever.
The majority of fans know this isn't true, so I think that's what really matters. By your own admission Kes was ruined with the short life span, mental powers & Elogium long before "Fury" anyway. The only think you do agree on was her being sweet & innocent, which the most of the audience found boring about her to being with. So it seems whether it was up to the audience or to you, Kes would have been dropped due to "character distruction" or lack of interest regardless.

I'd also like to know how true this letter writing campagine to save Kes is. Trekbbs is one of the most popular Trek message boards on the net, yet I've never seen a link to it, never heard from any other Kes fan that knows of it or signed it on any board or convention I've ever been too.

 

[Lynx]

If it was an after thought, then it wouldn't be stated that he always had a plan to make Kes a villain during an interview to Star Trek: The Magazine & Communicator a month before the ep. aired. So no, Braga had no idea "Fury" wasn't going to be well recieved. Who could possablly know what types of eps. the audience will or won't like until they're aired? If they knew that, a few TNG eps and DS9's first two seasons, Threshold, the Fight & Tsunkatiz(sp?) wouldn't exist either.

Besides, wasn't Piller or Fuller already long gone from writing for Trek when "Fury" was filmed? So, I think that's proof the story/idea did indeed sit around for years before it saw the light of day. Therefore the "Dark Phoenix" idea couldn't have been an after thought.

Why would there be mention of a "Dark Phoenix" story plot during seasons Kes wasn't a part of?

Braga came up with his explanation around the same time "Fury" was aired, which might be an after-construction. If he have had any plans to turn the Kes story into some weak "Dark Phoenix" copy, then why didn't they keep Kes instead of dumping her? It would have been more realistic if that scenario had taken place during seasons 4-6 instead of bringing back a dumped character for total destruction after more than two years absence.

If Braga is a smart guy (which I actually think he is), then he probably did know that the Kes fans wouldnt like the episode and in that case it was convenient to come up with something like "oh, we always planned to make the character a bad person". I think he knew exactly what he was doing and what the resuld would be.

Whatever.
The majority of fans know this isn't true, so I think that's what really matters. By your own admission Kes was ruined with the short life span, mental powers & Elogium long before "Fury" anyway. The only think you do agree on was her being sweet & innocent, which the most of the audience found boring about her to being with. So it seems whether it was up to the audience or to you, Kes would have been dropped due to "character distruction" or lack of interest regardless.

I'd also like to know how true this letter writing campagine to save Kes is. Trekbbs is one of the most popular Trek message boards on the net, yet I've never seen a link to it, never heard from any other Kes fan that knows of it or signed it on any board or convention I've ever been too.

I don't mind about her mental powers as they were before the ridiculous events in "The Gift", on the contrary I find them fascinating. Episodes like "Persistence Of Vision", "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" are among my absolute favorites.

Some of the things in "Elogium", like the Ocampa mating rituals were silly. But I can live with them.

The short life-span did limit the character's potential but that could have been sorted out by prolonging the lifespan of the character.

"Fury" was just stupid, uncessary character destruction and nothing more. Why bring back a character which they have made everything to make the viewers forget only to destroy the character and kill her off (which was the original idea)?

The letter campaign can be found here: http://www.jennifer-lien.com/

 

[exodus]

^^Isn't that your website, Lynx?

No offence but I find it full of contradictions.
The site says Kes' return in "Fury" is a small victory for Kes fans, yet here you're saying it insulted fans & it was character distruction.

So which is it?