Neelix & Kes

[Lynx]

I don't think that Neelix even considered to use the Kazon as some sort of revenge on the Haakonians.

The Kazon were undisciplined and split up in rivalling sects who did seem to care more about internal conflicts than to unite and attack any outside force. Not even Culluh managed to unite the sects against Voyager and that was only one ship.

I suppose that the Haakonians were rather powerful when it came to military strength and that the Kazon did know about that. Neelix probably realized all that and therefore had no intentions at all to try to persuade the Kazon-Ogla into any adventures with the Haakonians.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Because Neelix thunk (it's not a real word, but I like it.) too small.

Sure in the pilot, he lied to Janeway, and threw them at the kazon to get his girlfriend back from that kazon Camp which netted Janeway 2 years of being chased and harangued by gypsies. But he was devious, got his way, and damned the consequences.

But Neelix in this scenario would be a tool used to manifest Seska's dark ends.

Faustian.

But as near as i can figure out Tallax fell some 15 years ago. It's occupied country, and no one cares and an equilibrium has been met that everything looks civilized without armed troops on every street corner.

If Seska wanted to transport a few thousand officials into transporter suspension forever or delete their patterns before they terminally degrade, it would be a devastating decapitory first strike, the Harkonians might never recover from... besides the best she could hope for is a bloodless political coup without using any military force at all on either side. I believe that's called annexation?

You into real estate?

Understand the principle of flipping?

Our Cardassian Spy was trading up species becoming queen of one better empire after another no matter what husk she has to leave behind to pitch her flag on the next virgin territory till the entire quadrant is on one knee swearing devotion to the girl.

She could have tamed that savage land bring order and civilization were there was basically none, and surely that's a good thing?

 

[Anwar]

I dunno, the best allies she could make were the Kazon. And once the Kazon came across tougher guys (inevitable) she'd be screwed. Especially if she ran into a Vidiian squadron since they'd just dissect her rather than listen to anything she had to say.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She chose the weakest and most backward (within reason) faction in that region simply because they were easier to manipulate and assimilate. Why bite off more than can chew? Slow and steady wins the race, but later, once she had a powerblock to work from, look out Delta Quadrant! Here she comes!

Besides the Vidiians, as marvellous as their war machine was, they were a bloody PR nightmare, those flaky buggers would have been the perfect threat to polarize the entire quadrant against under a single will, even hers if she could spin it right that early in the game that Seska had her kazon harvesting from noticeable rich and important regions, just like the baddies always do these days most often framing blame and inciting discord, not that she'd have to fan the flames too much at all, but if Seska could get some serious non aggression pacts and trade alliances with other contenders in that corner of the Delta Quadrant based mostly on a kindred loathing of the Vidiians, well, that lady becomes the lynch pin holding society together doesn't she?

This is what Cardassian's do, they build communities. Sure via slaughter, invasion, secret police and slavery, but that's just the glue that holds everything together for the middle classes and up who want their cheap fuel, toys, commodities and entertainment. The proletariat is there to be stepped on and it's their own damn falt for wasting away at the bottom of the class system.

Humans on the other hand, Those Starfleet types, the Prime Directive insists that they keep their head down and stay out of everyones way because they'll only make everything worse or become culpable for the universes woes if they input any help or instruction toward the little floudering species that will during the act of charity consume their entire financial surplus... Cowardly cowardly custard, eats his mothers mustard?

Janeway kept safe by moving quickly and causing as little impact as possible, opposed to Seska's dogma, who supposed that she wouldn't be safe until she'd imposed her superior Cardassian morality on everyone building government and fortifications around herself until no one could even think against her that it would be criminal and immoral.

Competing and contradicting philosophies no?

 

[Lynx]

it would have been interesting to know how and when Seska got in touch with the Nistrim the first time. According to the Star Trek Chronology book, it happened about a week before the events in "State Of Flux", obviously shortly after "Prime Factors" which took place on Stardate 48642.5 (Monday 23 August 2371), The events in "State Of Flux" took place at Stardate 48658.2 (Sunday 29 August 2371).

I can guess that Seska was angry and agitated after the failure with the Sikarian transporter device and sought up the first possible Kazon sect in order to get some help from them.

However, I doubt that Seska deliberately did choose the weakest sect, not to mention that I do think that here were sects who were weaker than the Nistrim too. I guess that she simply stumbled over them during that week. But she was smart enough to see the possibility to manipulate them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Oh no, I wasn't saying that the Nistrim were weaker than other kazon, but that the Kazon overall were practically weaker than every other empire and culture in that corner of the galaxy from even first principles that they couldn't band together for their own common good.

Even the simple act of getting them all to team up (Shades of Flash Gordon. Something Janeway could be court-martialed and jailed for.) would be a colossal victory which would earn the girl supreme bragging rights like the dog catcher who fells an elephant.

 

[exodus]

Neelix attended senior officer staff meetings because he was the ships embassidor and in-charge of trade negotiations. Eps. like "Living Witness", "Hope & Fear" & "Raven" showed us that natives of the Delta Quad. were afraid and mistrusting of Voyager. They wanted nothing to do with them. However, Neelix being a native species of the quad. himself, he was less likely to stir up suspicion and his friendly demeanor put others at ease.

Just like, I presume, if a ship of a Delta Quadrant species came to Alpha Quadrant and along the way picked up some random civilian from one of the many native species, he'd be likely to be trusted and accepted by Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans, the Breen, the Ferengi, the Tholians, the Tzenkethi and who knows who else, just for being a native of the Quadrant.

I don't think the Cardassians trust anybody.

Seriously, isn't that why the Borg assimilated Picard?

As far as all this talk about Seska.
If she was so smart, she wouldn't have ended up dead.
She backed the wrong team siding w/ the Kazon.

 

[MikeS]

The Kazon were undisciplined and split up in rivalling sects who did seem to care more about internal conflicts than to unite and attack any outside force. Not even Culluh managed to unite the sects against Voyager and that was only one ship.

Hmm, sounds like a present day species I know.

This is what Cardassian's do, they build communities. Sure via slaughter, invasion, secret police and slavery, but that's just the glue that holds everything together for the middle classes and up who want their cheap fuel, toys, commodities and entertainment. The proletariat is there to be stepped on and it's their own damn falt for wasting away at the bottom of the class system.

Hmm, again...

 

[Kai Winn]

i think seven explained it nicely, 'the kazon are an inferior race unworthy of assimilation'. how they got their star ships up and running remains a mystery yet to be explained, maybe trabe technology was good enough to transport the even most ignorant passengers. seska might have waited and offered her talents to the trabe, or vaadwaur. the second would have been the perfect match. with the kazon, no matter how smart she was and what benefits she delivered, she had the disadvantage to be a woman, and to be constantly overruled by that fool culluh. why did she choose a race so unlike the cardassians?

 

[exodus]

i think seven explained it nicely, 'the kazon are an inferior race unworthy of assimilation'. how they got their star ships up and running remains a mystery yet to be explained, maybe trabe technology was good enough to transport the even most ignorant passengers. seska might have waited and offered her talents to the trabe, or vaadwaur. the second would have been the perfect match. with the kazon, no matter how smart she was and what benefits she delivered, she had the disadvantage to be a woman, and to be constantly overruled by that fool culluh. why did she choose a race so unlike the cardassians?

because they're easily manipulated.

I have the odd feeling the Kazon held people at gunpoint to make repairs on their ships. Frankly, I'm surprised the Kazon weren't drug dealers or weapons traders.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Of course they were.

We just never met the sects that specialized in those areas.

There was no law other than their own where they lived, and even that was probably by thumb.

Winn, think about the CIA advisers that would/did/do shoopshoop down to some tin pot little Latin nation or dinky African layaway to facilitate the sale and training of modern weapons in the past and the present. Useful scary people but it would take a country full of backward savages to raise up a company man to the rank of godemperor just because their toys seemed magical.

Sean Connery was in a movie called "The Man who would be king" about 19th century British Soldiers that used modern weaponry and science to fake godhood and demand an empire from the locals in "Kafiristan". then Bing crosby stole the Sun in a Conneticut Tankee in King Arthurs Court... Martin Laurence too?

But frankly, from how that intermediary was cock blocking Jonas when he was trying to report to Seska about his espionage on Voyager, I really think that the only kazon that though less or more of Seska because she was a woman was kullah, and that's just because he was in love with her... But he seemed to hate Kathy more because she was a woman?

 

[DevilEyes]

But frankly, from how that intermediary was cock blocking Jonas when he was trying to report to Seska about his espionage on Voyager, I really think that the only kazon that though less or more of Seska because she was a woman was kullah, and that's just because he was in love with her... But he seemed to hate Kathy more because she was a woman?

He liked Seska because she was a woman stroking his ego (among other things...) and pretending to be the obedient female while actually manipulating him, and he hated Janeway because she was a woman who was not stroking his ego (or other things) and who was an opponent; and a strong woman who doesn't stroke his ego or act like he's in charge = bitch.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, the misogyny was supposed to be part of their "space barbarian" schtick. Or at least Cullahs'. His grandfather was a great leader of the Kazon but Cullah in particular was supposed to be a dummy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

According to ken Biller, a quote on the back of the Voyager trading cards, the kazon were an allegory for the African American "gang" problem... Which to this day i am still face palming about because they can't have intended to be that insulting on purpose which out being just that white.

The misogyny argument is excellent, but Kulluh is rulling class, he may hate women who test him, but odds are he hates everyone who defies him, but just women a little more than men. I'm not saying that he isn't a misogynist, just that all kazon "men" shouldn't be lumped into that single category just because of one punk with a Napoleon complex.

Look at how no one questioned Seska's command in Shattered. The Kazon under her had no problem being under her because she was a good leader who provided for her people. Hells, they all knew Kulluh was a figure head and no one told him.

Oh. Kullah said that rape was bad. Y'know when he thought that it was Chakotay's bubbuh in her tum. Which dampens my theories about how Kes spent her nights during her slaves life in the Kazon encampment.

 

[exodus]

How the hell did we go from Neelix & Kes to Seska & Cullah?

 

[Akiraprise]

How the hell did we go from Neelix & Kes to Seska & Cullah?

It's the Voyager forum. 'Nuff said.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's the story about people who get right lost trying to get from a to b.

We're upholding a principle.

If Neelix and Kes had been merged in a transporter accident, their name would have been ....

Kleenixes

 

[Red Ranger]

It's the story about people who get right lost trying to get from a to b.

We're upholding a principle.

If Neelix and Kes had been merged in a transporter accident, their name would have been ....

Kleenixes

I prefer Kesnix, myself! -- RR

 

[Timewalker]

It's the story about people who get right lost trying to get from a to b.

We're upholding a principle.

If Neelix and Kes had been merged in a transporter accident, their name would have been ....

Kleenixes

AH-CHOO!

*throws away the used Kleenex, which somehow equates to Kes and Neelix' thrown-away relationship*

Seriously, I never liked Kes. Ever. I found her ungodly boring.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her ridiculous hair cut brang me such joy. I mocked the hell of it till my throat went horse in the early days.

I wonder why Tom didn't make a run at her once she'd finished with Neelix after all the fuss the two of them made with that food fight in the mess figuring out who should be going steady with this over developed two year old?