Neelix & Kes

[exodus]

My comment about "only Kes-haters like "Fury" may look a bit exaggerated. But so far I haven't encountered any Kes fan who likes the episode.

Because you keep ignoring them.
Joyofvgr, one of your supposed good friends is a Kes fan and has stated SEVERAL times that she likes "Fury".
She's asked you several times to stop labeling people with a board brush, you seem to ignore that too.

 

[exodus]

I don't think Kes was that unpopular at all, the poll here clearly showed she wasn't and most of the review websites speak favorably about her.

...and what of the thousands of fans that don't post here or online about Voyager? Does only the limited things you see count for everybody?
Ever question why it just came down to Harry or Kes getting the boot?
Ironic how popularity vote of Sexist men on TV saved Garrett, isn't it?

 

[Lynx]

My comment about "only Kes-haters like "Fury" may look a bit exaggerated. But so far I haven't encountered any Kes fan who likes the episode.

Because you keep ignoring them.
Joyofvgr, one of your supposed good friends is a Kes fan and has stated SEVERAL times that she likes "Fury".
She's asked you several times to stop labeling people with a board brush, you seem to ignore that too.

I don't know if Joyofvgr is that fond of the episode, she has written some positive comments about it but some negative aspects as well, anyway in that case she's an exception from the common opinion among the Kes fans.

and what of the thousands of fans that don't post here or online about Voyager? Does only the limited things you see count for everybody?
Ever question why it just came down to Harry or Kes getting the boot?
Ironic how popularity vote of Sexist men on TV saved Garrett, isn't it?

Ironic that I was stating the same thing about "the fans who don't post here" on a certain board everytime a certain group of fans which I used to call "The Mob" arranged their polls after scaring off all Kes fans from that forum. Of course I was told that those fans who didn't vote there didn't count. I guess that votes and polls only count when they are in Kes's disfavor.

I get the impression from most of the forums I poston that Neelix, Harry and maybe Chakotay are less popular than Kes.

 

[exodus]

^

It has been explained before, what happens on other boards has nothing to do with this one. Those people aren't even members here.
You really didn't expect posters to accept you after you called them "The Mob" repeatedly did you?

Yes, but you also believe that you're fighting a crusade against a great unknown evil for the character distruction of a character on a show, that have be both gone and off the air for years now. Forgive me but due to such and board sweeping statements, I find it hard to take much stock in those impressions or POV.

 

[Lynx]

^^
It's absolutely correct that what is happening on other boards has nothing to do with this one and what I can see, on this board Kes is more popular than some other characters.

As for any "crusade", if there really are any "crusades" about this matter, then it looks like I'm not the only one who's fighting "crusades".

 

[Akiraprise]

I think you two have gone back and forth now, by yourselves, for long enough. I suggest you call this round a draw and move on to some other topic. You're just going in circles. Neither one of you are going to budge in your respective standpoints so the debate is pointless.

 

[MikeS]

Sorry to wade in here after everyone's gone home.

And don't forget that it was those in charge of the show who created the "super-being" thing when it comes to Kes. The author of the story on the website simply stayed true to "canon" and took of from the scenario in "Fury".

I was under the impression that what is seen on screen is regarded as "canon", whether we like what we see or not. (unless the big-bird himself doesn't like it and tells us it's not canon ala ST:V )

As for "Fury", only those who hate the character Kes can like that episode.

I liked Kes. I think Jennifer Lien is very attractive. I love Fury.

I like the episode because it's about the character suffering from Alzheimer's. We were watching the little girl we knew would enter the end of her life. The Golden Years aren't always golden. It's sad but it's real and it's true.

She wants to kill the Voyager crew because she's going thru the Mor-Elogium and has dementia. She's old and her memories are all fucked up.

The first clue: She didn't remember Tom's name.

The second was her rambling in the cargo bay about how Voyager the stole her from Ocampia and then tossed her out. She getting her facts wrong and incoherent. (MESSAGE!!)

Janeway keeps asking Kes: What are you talking about?
Kes, that never happened?

Kes isn't getting her facts straight because she can't remember clearly. Her mind is powerful but she's old and getting forgetful.

Young Kes's holo-recording

"I'm the little girl you came back to save but this is not who you are and this is not what you were about. It was your choice to use you abilities and it was your choice to leave Voyager. Remember who you are. Remember me!"

Janeway explains when they made the recording blah-blah-blah.

Now this is important; you have to watch Jen Lien's face. She looks at Janeway and you can see that she doesn't know who she is.....then you see the lightbulb go on and she smiles!! Her first words are: "I remember, now I remember."
...and she laughs.(Old Kes is back)

She continues: "These last few years, so much confusion(SENILE!!).......and pain. I'd forgotten, buried the memories.

However it's not done, last clue.
Before she beams off, her exchange with Neelix:
"Do you see anyone you know?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now)
Neelix: "Only you."

Kes gets on the transporter padd and just before she completely beams out, she turns and smiles at Neelix. She just remembered him.

It's not a happy story but part of having a character like Kes on the show was to watch her grow up and eventually die. Voyager IMO gave us a "futuristic" but realistic tale of a real fact of life. Getting old is not pretty.

^This is the interpretation I got and why I love the episode. To watch a loved one suffer with Alzheimer's is heartbreaking. Especially when they forget who you are, the love and good-times you've shared together.

Just because the Voyager crew have prior knowledge, doesn't mean they would want to alter her life and development. That is the whole point of this story.

Lynx, I don't want to sound harsh, but the show is called Star Trek: Voyager. There's a big clue there. If it were Star Trek: Kes, I could understand your grievance better.

Someone was obsessed with throwing the jname Kes into Star Trek. Picard met the Kes in Attached, and Checkov made fun of Crewman Kes' feet in the undiscovered Country.

Do we know who supplied this hardon to introduce this name to fandom as often as possible?

I'm sure that was crewman Dax.

 

[exodus]

Sorry to wade in here after everyone's gone home.

And don't forget that it was those in charge of the show who created the "super-being" thing when it comes to Kes. The author of the story on the website simply stayed true to "canon" and took of from the scenario in "Fury".

I was under the impression that what is seen on screen is regarded as "canon", whether we like what we see or not. (unless the big-bird himself doesn't like it and tells us it's not canon ala ST:V )

As for "Fury", only those who hate the character Kes can like that episode.

I liked Kes. I think Jennifer Lien is very attractive. I love Fury.

I like the episode because it's about the character suffering from Alzheimer's. We were watching the little girl we knew would enter the end of her life. The Golden Years aren't always golden. It's sad but it's real and it's true.

She wants to kill the Voyager crew because she's going thru the Mor-Elogium and has dementia. She's old and her memories are all fucked up.

The first clue: She didn't remember Tom's name.

The second was her rambling in the cargo bay about how Voyager the stole her from Ocampia and then tossed her out. She getting her facts wrong and incoherent. (MESSAGE!!)

Janeway keeps asking Kes: What are you talking about?
Kes, that never happened?

Kes isn't getting her facts straight because she can't remember clearly. Her mind is powerful but she's old and getting forgetful.

Young Kes's holo-recording

"I'm the little girl you came back to save but this is not who you are and this is not what you were about. It was your choice to use you abilities and it was your choice to leave Voyager. Remember who you are. Remember me!"

Janeway explains when they made the recording blah-blah-blah.

Now this is important; you have to watch Jen Lien's face. She looks at Janeway and you can see that she doesn't know who she is.....then you see the lightbulb go on and she smiles!! Her first words are: "I remember, now I remember."
...and she laughs.(Old Kes is back)

She continues: "These last few years, so much confusion(SENILE!!).......and pain. I'd forgotten, buried the memories.

However it's not done, last clue.
Before she beams off, her exchange with Neelix:
"Do you see anyone you know?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now)
Neelix: "Only you."

Kes gets on the transporter padd and just before she completely beams out, she turns and smiles at Neelix. She just remembered him.

It's not a happy story but part of having a character like Kes on the show was to watch her grow up and eventually die. Voyager IMO gave us a "futuristic" but realistic tale of a real fact of life. Getting old is not pretty.

^This is the interpretation I got and why I love the episode. To watch a loved one suffer with Alzheimer's is heartbreaking. Especially when they forget who you are, the love and good-times you've shared together.

Just because the Voyager crew have prior knowledge, doesn't mean they would want to alter her life and development. That is the whole point of this story.

Lynx, I don't want to sound harsh, but the show is called Star Trek: Voyager. There's a big clue there. If it were Star Trek: Kes, I could understand your grievance better.

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

If we ever meet in person, I owe you a beer or 3.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lynx, I don't want to sound harsh, but the show is called Star Trek: Voyager. There's a big clue there. If it were Star Trek: Kes, I could understand your grievance better.

Someone was obsessed with throwing the jname Kes into Star Trek. Picard met the Kes in Attached, and Checkov made fun of Crewman Kes' feet in the undiscovered Country.

Do we know who supplied this hardon to introduce this name to fandom as often as possible?

I'm sure that was crewman Dax.

DOH!

Imagine the coincidence if the show was about the USS Kestrel?

I've always thunk that in some point in the brainstorming that they wanted to call the show Odyssey, which is why they have the (almost) male lead being called Paris.

 

[Lynx]

Sorry to wade in here after everyone's gone home.

And don't forget that it was those in charge of the show who created the "super-being" thing when it comes to Kes. The author of the story on the website simply stayed true to "canon" and took of from the scenario in "Fury".

I was under the impression that what is seen on screen is regarded as "canon", whether we like what we see or not. (unless the big-bird himself doesn't like it and tells us it's not canon ala ST:V )

As for "Fury", only those who hate the character Kes can like that episode.

I liked Kes. I think Jennifer Lien is very attractive. I love Fury.

I like the episode because it's about the character suffering from Alzheimer's. We were watching the little girl we knew would enter the end of her life. The Golden Years aren't always golden. It's sad but it's real and it's true.

She wants to kill the Voyager crew because she's going thru the Mor-Elogium and has dementia. She's old and her memories are all fucked up.

The first clue: She didn't remember Tom's name.

The second was her rambling in the cargo bay about how Voyager the stole her from Ocampia and then tossed her out. She getting her facts wrong and incoherent. (MESSAGE!!)

Janeway keeps asking Kes: What are you talking about?
Kes, that never happened?

Kes isn't getting her facts straight because she can't remember clearly. Her mind is powerful but she's old and getting forgetful.

Young Kes's holo-recording

"I'm the little girl you came back to save but this is not who you are and this is not what you were about. It was your choice to use you abilities and it was your choice to leave Voyager. Remember who you are. Remember me!"

Janeway explains when they made the recording blah-blah-blah.

Now this is important; you have to watch Jen Lien's face. She looks at Janeway and you can see that she doesn't know who she is.....then you see the lightbulb go on and she smiles!! Her first words are: "I remember, now I remember."
...and she laughs.(Old Kes is back)

She continues: "These last few years, so much confusion(SENILE!!).......and pain. I'd forgotten, buried the memories.

However it's not done, last clue.
Before she beams off, her exchange with Neelix:
"Do you see anyone you know?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now)
Neelix: "Only you."

Kes gets on the transporter padd and just before she completely beams out, she turns and smiles at Neelix. She just remembered him.

It's not a happy story but part of having a character like Kes on the show was to watch her grow up and eventually die. Voyager IMO gave us a "futuristic" but realistic tale of a real fact of life. Getting old is not pretty.

^This is the interpretation I got and why I love the episode. To watch a loved one suffer with Alzheimer's is heartbreaking. Especially when they forget who you are, the love and good-times you've shared together.

Just because the Voyager crew have prior knowledge, doesn't mean they would want to alter her life and development. That is the whole point of this story.

Lynx, I don't want to sound harsh, but the show is called Star Trek: Voyager. There's a big clue there. If it were Star Trek: Kes, I could understand your grievance better.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with your opinion here.

It doesn't matter if the show is called "Star Trek: Voyager", "Star Trek: Kes", "Star Trek: Tom Paris" or whatsoever. What they gave us in "Fury" was the ultimate character destruction and a total insult to the fans.

And personally I don't have the slightest interest in watching "heartbreaking" episodes with people dying slowly, especially not when it's about my favorite characters. There are certain syrupy shows and series for that kind of "entertainment".

I must also admit that I still find it hard to believe that anyone who likes the character Kes can like the ultimate character destruction in "Fury". Don't you find it a true act of sadism to bring back a character for one, single episode-just to ruin and totally destroy the character? I mean, I'm not particularily fond of Seven Of Nine but I would never dream of ruining the character in the same way Kes was destroyed.

 

[You_Guyz]

Sorry to wade in here after everyone's gone home.

And don't forget that it was those in charge of the show who created the "super-being" thing when it comes to Kes. The author of the story on the website simply stayed true to "canon" and took of from the scenario in "Fury".

I was under the impression that what is seen on screen is regarded as "canon", whether we like what we see or not. (unless the big-bird himself doesn't like it and tells us it's not canon ala ST:V )

As for "Fury", only those who hate the character Kes can like that episode.

I liked Kes. I think Jennifer Lien is very attractive. I love Fury.

I like the episode because it's about the character suffering from Alzheimer's. We were watching the little girl we knew would enter the end of her life. The Golden Years aren't always golden. It's sad but it's real and it's true.

She wants to kill the Voyager crew because she's going thru the Mor-Elogium and has dementia. She's old and her memories are all fucked up.

The first clue: She didn't remember Tom's name.

The second was her rambling in the cargo bay about how Voyager the stole her from Ocampia and then tossed her out. She getting her facts wrong and incoherent. (MESSAGE!!)

Janeway keeps asking Kes: What are you talking about?
Kes, that never happened?

Kes isn't getting her facts straight because she can't remember clearly. Her mind is powerful but she's old and getting forgetful.

Young Kes's holo-recording

"I'm the little girl you came back to save but this is not who you are and this is not what you were about. It was your choice to use you abilities and it was your choice to leave Voyager. Remember who you are. Remember me!"

Janeway explains when they made the recording blah-blah-blah.

Now this is important; you have to watch Jen Lien's face. She looks at Janeway and you can see that she doesn't know who she is.....then you see the lightbulb go on and she smiles!! Her first words are: "I remember, now I remember."
...and she laughs.(Old Kes is back)

She continues: "These last few years, so much confusion(SENILE!!).......and pain. I'd forgotten, buried the memories.

However it's not done, last clue.
Before she beams off, her exchange with Neelix:
"Do you see anyone you know?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now)
Neelix: "Only you."

Kes gets on the transporter padd and just before she completely beams out, she turns and smiles at Neelix. She just remembered him.

It's not a happy story but part of having a character like Kes on the show was to watch her grow up and eventually die. Voyager IMO gave us a "futuristic" but realistic tale of a real fact of life. Getting old is not pretty.

^This is the interpretation I got and why I love the episode. To watch a loved one suffer with Alzheimer's is heartbreaking. Especially when they forget who you are, the love and good-times you've shared together.

I sort of liked the general idea surrounding Kes's return (even if it didn't actually make much sense) but it simply wasn't done justice with the script and certainly wasn't done justice with only 45 minutes. The rushed end where Kes barely spoke to the crew and we found out NOTHING about what she had been doing was literally one of the most surreal things in trek.

 

[exodus]

Sorry to wade in here after everyone's gone home.

And don't forget that it was those in charge of the show who created the "super-being" thing when it comes to Kes. The author of the story on the website simply stayed true to "canon" and took of from the scenario in "Fury".

I was under the impression that what is seen on screen is regarded as "canon", whether we like what we see or not. (unless the big-bird himself doesn't like it and tells us it's not canon ala ST:V )



I liked Kes. I think Jennifer Lien is very attractive. I love Fury.

I like the episode because it's about the character suffering from Alzheimer's. We were watching the little girl we knew would enter the end of her life. The Golden Years aren't always golden. It's sad but it's real and it's true.

She wants to kill the Voyager crew because she's going thru the Mor-Elogium and has dementia. She's old and her memories are all fucked up.

The first clue: She didn't remember Tom's name.

The second was her rambling in the cargo bay about how Voyager the stole her from Ocampia and then tossed her out. She getting her facts wrong and incoherent. (MESSAGE!!)

Janeway keeps asking Kes: What are you talking about?
Kes, that never happened?

Kes isn't getting her facts straight because she can't remember clearly. Her mind is powerful but she's old and getting forgetful.

Young Kes's holo-recording

"I'm the little girl you came back to save but this is not who you are and this is not what you were about. It was your choice to use you abilities and it was your choice to leave Voyager. Remember who you are. Remember me!"

Janeway explains when they made the recording blah-blah-blah.

Now this is important; you have to watch Jen Lien's face. She looks at Janeway and you can see that she doesn't know who she is.....then you see the lightbulb go on and she smiles!! Her first words are: "I remember, now I remember."
...and she laughs.(Old Kes is back)

She continues: "These last few years, so much confusion(SENILE!!).......and pain. I'd forgotten, buried the memories.

However it's not done, last clue.
Before she beams off, her exchange with Neelix:
"Do you see anyone you know?" (She's serious, she can't remember him now)
Neelix: "Only you."

Kes gets on the transporter padd and just before she completely beams out, she turns and smiles at Neelix. She just remembered him.

It's not a happy story but part of having a character like Kes on the show was to watch her grow up and eventually die. Voyager IMO gave us a "futuristic" but realistic tale of a real fact of life. Getting old is not pretty.

^This is the interpretation I got and why I love the episode. To watch a loved one suffer with Alzheimer's is heartbreaking. Especially when they forget who you are, the love and good-times you've shared together.

Just because the Voyager crew have prior knowledge, doesn't mean they would want to alter her life and development. That is the whole point of this story.

Lynx, I don't want to sound harsh, but the show is called Star Trek: Voyager. There's a big clue there. If it were Star Trek: Kes, I could understand your grievance better.

Sorry, but I totally disagree with your opinion here.

It doesn't matter if the show is called "Star Trek: Voyager", "Star Trek: Kes", "Star Trek: Tom Paris" or whatsoever. What they gave us in "Fury" was the ultimate character destruction and a total insult to the fans.

And personally I don't have the slightest interest in watching "heartbreaking" episodes with people dying slowly, especially not when it's about my favorite characters. There are certain syrupy shows and series for that kind of "entertainment".

I must also admit that I still find it hard to believe that anyone who likes the character Kes can like the ultimate character destruction in "Fury". Don't you find it a true act of sadism to bring back a character for one, single episode-just to ruin and totally destroy the character? I mean, I'm not particularily fond of Seven Of Nine but I would never dream of ruining the character in the same way Kes was destroyed.

If Seven of Nine was only meant to live 9 years, I'd accept her growing old & her death too. Getting old and suffering from Alzhimers is not character distruction, it's part of life. Millions of people world wide suffer from it, from my grandmother who died from it to Kate Mulgrews own mother. I'm sure their are others here who might know someone with it. It inspired Mulgrew to be a spokesperson for that illness and is helping raise money to find a cure because it's also genetic. Kate might one day get it, my mother might as well as myself.

I'm sorry you can't deal with it but for many of us, it's a part of reality that we have face and deal with. That is why we understand and accept "Fury". I'm sorry you refuse to comprehend it or see anything beyond a black & white/love or hate issue over Kes.

The question you keep avoiding is: why would you fall in love with a character that was eventually going to die if you couldn't accept it?

 

[Lynx]

If Seven of Nine was only meant to live 9 years, I'd accept her growing old & her death too. Getting old and suffering from Alzhimers is not character distruction, it's part of life. Millions of people world wide suffer from it, from my grandmother who died from it to Kate Mulgrews own mother. I'm sure their are others here who might know someone with it. It inspired Mulgrew to be a spokesperson for that illness and is helping raise money to find a cure because it's also genetic. Kate might one day get it, my mother might as well as myself.

But what does it have to do with the ongoing Voyager story? Kes had already left two seasons ago. She had, according to "canon", reached a highe level which was part of the development of the Ocampa. There was no need to bring her back because it didn't affect the ongoing Voyager saga in any way, except for annoying and insulting her fans. Besides that, energy beings can not age and as such, with the powers she had, she could easily overcome Earth diseases.

I'm sorry you can't deal with it but for many of us, it's a part of reality that we have face and deal with. That is why we understand and accept "Fury". I'm sorry you refuse to comprehend it or see anything beyond a black & white/love or hate issue over Kes.

I don't want to be faced with that "reality" over and over again when I watch a series which is supposed to be about exploring and adventures.. There are certain series which deals with that. Besides that, "Fury" wasn't even about any Alzheimer. It was about ruining a character, making the character look and act as mean and evil as possible before finally killing her off. Not even Seska was portrayed that way.

The question you keep avoiding is: why would you fall in love with a character that was eventually going to die if you couldn't accept it?

I've already answered that question in another post so my reply now is: THERE-ARE-FOUR-LIGHTS!

 

[exodus]

If Seven of Nine was only meant to live 9 years, I'd accept her growing old & her death too. Getting old and suffering from Alzhimers is not character distruction, it's part of life. Millions of people world wide suffer from it, from my grandmother who died from it to Kate Mulgrews own mother. I'm sure their are others here who might know someone with it. It inspired Mulgrew to be a spokesperson for that illness and is helping raise money to find a cure because it's also genetic. Kate might one day get it, my mother might as well as myself.

But what does it have to do with the ongoing Voyager story? Kes had already left two seasons ago. She had, according to "canon", reached a highe level which was part of the development of the Ocampa. There was no need to bring her back because it didn't affect the ongoing Voyager saga in any way, except for annoying and insulting her fans. Besides that, energy beings can not age and as such, with the powers she had, she could easily overcome Earth diseases.

I'm sorry you can't deal with it but for many of us, it's a part of reality that we have face and deal with. That is why we understand and accept "Fury". I'm sorry you refuse to comprehend it or see anything beyond a black & white/love or hate issue over Kes.

I don't want to be faced with that "reality" over and over again when I watch a series which is supposed to be about exploring and adventures.. There are certain series which deals with that. Besides that, "Fury" wasn't even about any Alzheimer. It was about ruining a character, making the character look and act as mean and evil as possible before finally killing her off. Not even Seska was portrayed that way.

Whatever.

It's just like a broken record, repeating the same non-sense over and over again. According to "canon" "Fury" is about Kes entering the Mor-Elogium, which according to "canon" she will start to loose her memory. If reaching a higher level is part of Ocamipa development, then why for the last 10 years do you keep saying: They only did that to get rid of the character and all those powers she had in "Coldfire" wasn't really her doing it?" So, one minute you're supporting canon when it suits you & denying it when it doesn't. How nice it must be pick & choose what to accept and what not too regardless of what actual "canon" is.
So whether you like it or not, the facts have been stated within in show itself and nothing but nothing can change it. Maybe if you knew someone with Alzhimers, you'd understand it better but I very much doubt it.

..and that is the end of that.

 

[MikeS]

Oops. Didn't mean to stir up such a hornet's nest. Lynx, this is all just my opinion and I accept that your opinion differs from mine. I hope you will do me the same courtesy.

except for annoying and insulting her fans.

Lynx if I've read your previous posts correctly you were part of some letter campaign to bring Kes back? "The Powers That Be" did so and you didn't like the result. That is fine, it is your opinion and we're all entitled to one. That is what makes a board like this interesting. The thing I don't understand is, do you really think that "TPTB" brought her back at the cost of, I don't know what an episode of Voyager cost, say $1,000,000, just to annoy you all? Wouldn't they have been better just to disregard the letter campaign if their raison-d'etre was to annoy Kes fans?

with the powers she had, she could easily overcome Earth diseases.

She is not suffering with Human Alzheimers but an Ocampan version. It is an allegory. Allegorical storytelling is something that Trek does alot of.

I don't want to be faced with that "reality" over and over again when I watch a series which is supposed to be about exploring and adventures.. There are certain series which deals with that.

I disagree. Star Trek has always been at it's best when it explores our reality's contempory issues and morality through the prism of the future.

I get the impression that you dislike this episode so much that you have never visited it again. I recommend you do so. With the thought of what Exodus has said. I sometimes find that rewatching after visiting this board gives me a fresh insight into an episode that I thought I knew well.

 

[TheQman]

Bottom line for me anyway

Neelix=good

Kes=good

Neelix+Kes=not good

 

[Lynx]

Whatever.

It's just like a broken record, repeating the same non-sense over and over again. According to "canon" "Fury" is about Kes entering the Mor-Elogium, which according to "canon" she will start to loose her memory. If reaching a higher level is part of Ocamipa development, then why for the last 10 years do you keep saying: They only did that to get rid of the character and all those powers she had in "Coldfire" wasn't really her doing it?" So, one minute you're supporting canon when it suits you & denying it when it doesn't. How nice it must be pick & choose what to accept and what not too regardless of what actual "canon" is.
So whether you like it or not, the facts have been stated within in show itself and nothing but nothing can change it. Maybe if you knew someone with Alzhimers, you'd understand it better but I very much doubt it.

..and that is the end of that.

You're twisting my words or misunderstanding me.

Kes's expanded powers in "Cold Fire" was because she was under the influence of Tanis. As we could see in the following episodes, she didn't have those powers anymore.

Her powers increased rapidly in "The Gift" because they wanted to get rid of the character as soon as possible. She was also too young to develope into an energy being at that time. The whole story ws flawed.

As an energy being, she shouldn't age. With the powers she did show up in "The Gift" and in "Fury", she should have been able to control or withstand whateved disease she was suffering from. Both "The Gift" and "Fury" are flawed, badly written stories made in order to get rid of a main character in the first place and destroy that character in the second place.

And yes, I refuse to accept the character destruction in "Fury".

 

[exodus]

^^Maybe you should study the the paranormal more & psychokenesis.

It's doesn't nor ever has given anybody the power to stop aging or fight off any illness. It doesn't and never has ever worked that way, be it "Carrie" all the way thru to "X-Men". Jean Gray & Cable are both psychokenetic and anybody that knows X-Men knows Jean Grey is dead nearly once a decade. While Cable like Kes is supposed to use his powers to his full abilty fighting Apocalypse, burn out & die.

Even folks that study the paranomal, will support the ability doesn't work that way.

Kes didn't display telepathy after "Coldfire" either and barely before it but she still had the ability. Even in "Caretaker" she believed the Ocampa had "extraordinary" mental abilities. Those are her own words. Just as Linus explained in "Coldfire" that the "energy" plain she saw was called "Xosha" and was an astral plain when Ocampians that reached their full mental abilities could exist as pure thought. He didn't say she could stay there forever or that she wouldn't age. He had been there & he was still aging. Further proof all right there within the story. He also told her that "Susperia's technology" was slowing his aging, not their powers. Everything he told Kes was true because it all came to pass. All this was told to her & us the viewer a whole year before "The Gift".
The story is not flawed, you choose to ignore it.

What you refuse to accept is the truth about Kes and what it means to be Ocampian.

 

[Lynx]

Oops. Didn't mean to stir up such a hornet's nest. Lynx, this is all just my opinion and I accept that your opinion differs from mine. I hope you will do me the same courtesy.

except for annoying and insulting her fans.

Lynx if I've read your previous posts correctly you were part of some letter campaign to bring Kes back? "The Powers That Be" did so and you didn't like the result. That is fine, it is your opinion and we're all entitled to one. That is what makes a board like this interesting. The thing I don't understand is, do you really think that "TPTB" brought her back at the cost of, I don't know what an episode of Voyager cost, say $1,000,000, just to annoy you all? Wouldn't they have been better just to disregard the letter campaign if their raison-d'etre was to annoy Kes fans?

with the powers she had, she could easily overcome Earth diseases.

She is not suffering with Human Alzheimers but an Ocampan version. It is an allegory. Allegorical storytelling is something that Trek does alot of.

I don't want to be faced with that "reality" over and over again when I watch a series which is supposed to be about exploring and adventures.. There are certain series which deals with that.

I disagree. Star Trek has always been at it's best when it explores our reality's contempory issues and morality through the prism of the future.

I get the impression that you dislike this episode so much that you have never visited it again. I recommend you do so. With the thought of what Exodus has said. I sometimes find that rewatching after visiting this board gives me a fresh insight into an episode that I thought I knew well.

Of course I will do you the same courtesy.

But I must also state that there are some things I disagree about.

When it comes to the letter campaign, I didn't start it but I participated in it and made everything I could to make people join it. What I've been told, the campaign did make a certain impact.

I see no other reason to bring back the character than to show "the finger" to the fans who wanted the character back. Why would they otherwise bring back a character whose existance they actually had done everything to make the viewers forget about for two years?

There were no logical reasons to bring back the character and the humiliation and destruction of the character served no purpose for the ongoing Voyager story.

As I see it, they had two choices: They could have brought back the character the way the fans wanted, as a regular character or they could simply have ignored the fans and not brought her back at all. They did choose the third option which was to bring back the character for one, tiny episode in which the character was portrayed as an evil monster and then kill her off at the end of the episode (which was the original purpose). And when they got the bad reactions on the episode, they didn't even have the grace to apologize and they made no attempt to correct the damage despite the fact that people were sending in suggestions for how to restore the character up to the last minute before deadline.

I have watched "Fury" once and yes, that was the second time in my life when I was very close to throw out my TV from the window (the first time was when I watched "The Gift"). Only greed (TV's are expensive) and concern for the people on the street prevented me from doing that.

And I will rather slit my throat than to watch that episode again.

As a matter of fact, I have Voyager's seasons 1, 2 and 3 on DVD and that's all I need. I see no reason to re-watch seasons 4-6 and "Endgame" again or watch the episodes between "Fury" and "Endgame" which I haven't watched at all.

I guess it might seem a bit fanatic to you but that's my opinion about "Fury" and the destruction of the character Kes.

 

[MikeS]

Fair enough. It does seem like an expensive and unnecessary way to get back at people that have been paying your paycheck for four years though.