Forever locked in MORTAL KOMBAT!
Nothing happens when I click on "Start". I want my money back!
Neelix & Kes
- Thread starter StardustSteph
- Start date
Nothing happens when I click on "Start". I want my money back!
Someone was obsessed with throwing the jname Kes into Star Trek. Picard met the Kes in Attached, and Checkov made fun of Crewman Kes' feet in the undiscovered Country.
Do we know who supplied this hardon to introduce this name to fandom as often as possible?
Do we know who supplied this hardon to introduce this name to fandom as often as possible?
Good question! I've actually wondered about that too.
As for the name, I'm actually toying with the idea to a story where Kes visits the Kes people at the planet Kesprytt. The name for the story would be "Kes and the Kes".
You can assume all you wish, especially next time you pat yourself on the back for the "Kes as councilor" idea because you & I know who's idea that was first.
Well, you know where I think that Braga and his gentle friends can stuff their flawed canon and where they can go. Fortunately they are gone from Trek now and that's the only positive thing I can say about the current development of Star Trek.
As for liking the episode or not, it's not about "liking an episode which I dislike" because there are episodes I dislike which other people like and I don't have any problem with that but I do think that liking and enjoying the senseless character destruction in that episode is only possible if you hate or dislike the character.
And honestly, I get the impression that you don't have much affection for neither the character nor the actress, otherwise we wouldn't have these discussions.
As for "knowing how to man up" and stand for one's own actions, work, creations or whatever, that's exactly what I'm doing too!
Yes I know who came up with the idea for Kes as a counsellor and I'll give you all credit for that. That suggestion is good.
But do we need that kind of stories in Star Trek? I mean, Star Trek is about exploring, meeting other species and adventures, not about death, aging, grief and gloom. There are a lot of series which are about that theme and if that isn't enough, you just have to pick up the morning paper or watch TV.
Note also that what happened in "Fury" had nothing to do with any "aging theme" either since all of that had been dropped a long time ago, already in season 2 and was finally ditched with Kes's exit in "The Gift". It was all about bringing back a character for no other purpose than to humiliate and destroy the character for no acceptable reason at all.
From my understanding, Star Trek was made to talk about the human condition and death is a part of that. Exploring space is the the backdrop to take us out of ourselves and see these issues thru different eyes. Several stories and themes in Trek are based on actual events in history. I don't see why it should be a taboo subject to talk about, it's something we ALL have to deal with and face be it our own death or the death of loved ones. The whole point of Kes & her living only 9 years was to explore life & death thru her eyes. Kes was never afraid of death and she never took her life for granted. That's why she was thrilled by the idea of what she was becoming in "The Gift" because just like leaving Ocampa, she didn't fear the unknown.You can assume all you wish, especially next time you pat yourself on the back for the "Kes as councilor" idea because you & I know who's idea that was first.Well, you know where I think that Braga and his gentle friends can stuff their flawed canon and where they can go. Fortunately they are gone from Trek now and that's the only positive thing I can say about the current development of Star Trek.
As for liking the episode or not, it's not about "liking an episode which I dislike" because there are episodes I dislike which other people like and I don't have any problem with that but I do think that liking and enjoying the senseless character destruction in that episode is only possible if you hate or dislike the character.
And honestly, I get the impression that you don't have much affection for neither the character nor the actress, otherwise we wouldn't have these discussions.
As for "knowing how to man up" and stand for one's own actions, work, creations or whatever, that's exactly what I'm doing too!
Yes I know who came up with the idea for Kes as a counsellor and I'll give you all credit for that. That suggestion is good.
But do we need that kind of stories in Star Trek? I mean, Star Trek is about exploring, meeting other species and adventures, not about death, aging, grief and gloom. There are a lot of series which are about that theme and if that isn't enough, you just have to pick up the morning paper or watch TV.
Note also that what happened in "Fury" had nothing to do with any "aging theme" either since all of that had been dropped a long time ago, already in season 2 and was finally ditched with Kes's exit in "The Gift". It was all about bringing back a character for no other purpose than to humiliate and destroy the character for no acceptable reason at all.
"Fury" is all about aging from the opening scene of Tuvok's birthday too seeing old Kes again and dealing with her going senile to the Vidiians who are harbingers of death. Her aging was brought up again in "Before & After"(end of s3) in which the EMH is trying to extend her life(Kes is going thru the Mor-Eloguim then and becoming forgetful) and her daughter tells the Doctor that her mother didn't want her life extended and that she accepted living only 9 years. Everything you're saying is a complete contradiction of what was already written, expanded and expressed within the show itself. As I said before, why did you become a fan of a character that's only going to live 9 years if you can't accept death?
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From my understanding, Star Trek was made to talk about the human condition and death is a part of that. Exploring space is the the backdrop to take us out of ourselves and see these issues thru different eyes. Several stories and themes in Trek are based on actual events in history. I don't see why it should be a taboo subject to talk about, it's something we ALL have to deal with and face be it our own death or the death of loved ones. The whole point of Kes & her living only 9 years was to explore life & death thru her eyes. Kes was never afraid of death and she never took her life for granted. That's why she was thrilled by the idea of what she was becoming in "The Gift" because just like leaving Ocampa, she didn't fear the unknown.You can assume all you wish, especially next time you pat yourself on the back for the "Kes as councilor" idea because you & I know who's idea that was first.
Yes I know who came up with the idea for Kes as a counsellor and I'll give you all credit for that. That suggestion is good.
But do we need that kind of stories in Star Trek? I mean, Star Trek is about exploring, meeting other species and adventures, not about death, aging, grief and gloom. There are a lot of series which are about that theme and if that isn't enough, you just have to pick up the morning paper or watch TV.
Note also that what happened in "Fury" had nothing to do with any "aging theme" either since all of that had been dropped a long time ago, already in season 2 and was finally ditched with Kes's exit in "The Gift". It was all about bringing back a character for no other purpose than to humiliate and destroy the character for no acceptable reason at all.
"Fury" is all about aging from the opening scene of Tuvok's birthday too seeing old Kes again and dealing with her going senile to the Vidiians who are harbingers of death. Her aging was brought up again in "Before & After"(end of s3) in which the EMH is trying to extend her life(Kes is going thru the Mor-Eloguim then and becoming forgetful) and her daughter tells the Doctor that her mother didn't want her life extended and that she accepted living only 9 years. Everything you're saying is a complete contradiction of what was already written, expanded and expressed within the show itself. As I said before, why did you become a fan of a character that's only going to live 9 years if you can't accept death?
Yes, Star Trek is about human condition and yes, death is a part of it but Trek isn't about wallowing in death and grief or tear-jerking episodes. There are other series, movies and soap-operas for that kind of "entertainment".
"Fury" is nothing but the ultimate and unnecessary destruction of a character they dumped three years earlier when they already had abandoned any plans of any "aging and dying" arc. There was no reason at all to bring back the character only to destroy her and finally kill her off which was their original intention for the episode. I see no other reason for making that episode than to insult the fans of the character.
All that was said and done in "Before And After" was forgotten in the next episode where Kes was her normal self again. Besides that, all the events in that episode happened in an alternate future, something which I'm often told when I bring up the fact that Kes's warning to Janeway about the Krenim is wiped out from the final script of "Year of Hell".
If there had been constant hints about Kes's short life-span, aging and upcoming death in the series from day one, it could have been "Bye-bye Voyager" from me at an early stage. But I always had a feeling that the life-span would be prolonged somewhere down the line, especially since the whole life-span thing was more and less abandoned at an early stage and only brought up on rare occasions when it was important for a story. There were also hints, most notably in "Cold Fire" but also in "Before And After" that her lifespan could and would be prolonged.
Exactly who's wallowing in grief again?From my understanding, Star Trek was made to talk about the human condition and death is a part of that. Exploring space is the the backdrop to take us out of ourselves and see these issues thru different eyes. Several stories and themes in Trek are based on actual events in history. I don't see why it should be a taboo subject to talk about, it's something we ALL have to deal with and face be it our own death or the death of loved ones. The whole point of Kes & her living only 9 years was to explore life & death thru her eyes. Kes was never afraid of death and she never took her life for granted. That's why she was thrilled by the idea of what she was becoming in "The Gift" because just like leaving Ocampa, she didn't fear the unknown.Yes I know who came up with the idea for Kes as a counsellor and I'll give you all credit for that. That suggestion is good.
But do we need that kind of stories in Star Trek? I mean, Star Trek is about exploring, meeting other species and adventures, not about death, aging, grief and gloom. There are a lot of series which are about that theme and if that isn't enough, you just have to pick up the morning paper or watch TV.
Note also that what happened in "Fury" had nothing to do with any "aging theme" either since all of that had been dropped a long time ago, already in season 2 and was finally ditched with Kes's exit in "The Gift". It was all about bringing back a character for no other purpose than to humiliate and destroy the character for no acceptable reason at all.
"Fury" is all about aging from the opening scene of Tuvok's birthday too seeing old Kes again and dealing with her going senile to the Vidiians who are harbingers of death. Her aging was brought up again in "Before & After"(end of s3) in which the EMH is trying to extend her life(Kes is going thru the Mor-Eloguim then and becoming forgetful) and her daughter tells the Doctor that her mother didn't want her life extended and that she accepted living only 9 years. Everything you're saying is a complete contradiction of what was already written, expanded and expressed within the show itself. As I said before, why did you become a fan of a character that's only going to live 9 years if you can't accept death?
Yes, Star Trek is about human condition and yes, death is a part of it but Trek isn't about wallowing in death and grief or tear-jerking episodes. There are other series, movies and soap-operas for that kind of "entertainment".
"Fury" is nothing but the ultimate and unnecessary destruction of a character they dumped three years earlier when they already had abandoned any plans of any "aging and dying" arc. There was no reason at all to bring back the character only to destroy her and finally kill her off which was their original intention for the episode. I see no other reason for making that episode than to insult the fans of the character.
Trek isn't about tear jerking eps.?
"City of the Edge of Forever"
"Inner Light"
"The Visitor"
"Real Life"
Really?
Interesting how they are all fans & critics top choice and (Gasp!) all deal with death & loss!!
Again, why is your favorite character in all Trek the one that only lives for 9 years if you can't deal with death?
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...like Kes in "Fury"?
Trek isn't about wallowing in rage either.
It also tries to show us tolerance & moving beyond rage to better ourselves.
Why is you favorite character in all Trek one that only lives 9 years if you can't deal with loss?
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Oh no, what we did see in "Fury" was insanity. My rage is controlled and justified.
What I've seen, Trek is also about standing up against evil forces and fighting for justice.
As for the third question, I happened to like the character and was pretty sure that they would come up with something which prolonged her lifespan.
It would have been better if Neelix and Kes ahd not been in a relationship and just been friends from the start. She was always the one who appeared the one with brains, look at her when studying medicine under the Doctor. All Neelix could do most of the time was to give everyone a reason to be on sick leave with his cooking! And when asked about where they were in space or about a planet and stuff like that he tended not to give a straight answer.
Yeah, Neelix was kind of a con-artist.
Isn't that why he was in trouble with the Kazon when they found him?
He had promised them something and never made good on it.
This was never about popularity.
Liking "Fury" doesn't make one a "Kes Hater" anymore than being a fan of the least popular character makes anyone any less important.
If being in the tiny minority was important none of us would admit to being Voyager fans.
Should your opinion not matter because defending Kes puts you in the tiny minority?
My comment about "only Kes-haters like "Fury" may look a bit exaggerated. But so far I haven't encountered any Kes fan who likes the episode.
There are a few Kes fans who were pleased to see Jennifer Lien back on screen in that episode but they didn't like the story in the episode.
During all the years I've been debating this issue on different forums, those who have vehemently defended the episode and expressed their liking of it have been the same people who have constantly trashed the character Kes (and sometimes also the actress Jennifer Lien) on several occasions on the same forums.
As for "least popular character", Kes wasn't and isn't the "least popular character". I get the impression that Neelix and Kim, maybe also Chakotay are less popular than Kes.
There are a few Kes fans who were pleased to see Jennifer Lien back on screen in that episode but they didn't like the story in the episode.
During all the years I've been debating this issue on different forums, those who have vehemently defended the episode and expressed their liking of it have been the same people who have constantly trashed the character Kes (and sometimes also the actress Jennifer Lien) on several occasions on the same forums.
As for "least popular character", Kes wasn't and isn't the "least popular character". I get the impression that Neelix and Kim, maybe also Chakotay are less popular than Kes.
I'm a Kes fan and I don't hate the episode. Just saying...
I thought it was kind of neat seeing an alternate version of the Kes we already knew. Not every story has a happy ending. Fury was kind of bittersweet in that regard. They were able to help Kes remember the good times she had on Voyager at the end before she left. I didn't entirely buy into the idea that Kes would want to kill the Voyager crew because they forced her to leave Ocampa, but Kes clearly went through a rough patch after she left Voyager.
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