Why don't you reread my opening post? Take a hard look at it. And tell me where the alleged sexism was.
Correct. The main target of my complaint was sloppy writing and (in the matter of Harry Kim) childish grudges.
How to resolve 6 Voyager Inconsistencies in 85 seconds
- Thread starter Oddish
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Why don't you reread my opening post? Take a hard look at it. And tell me where the alleged sexism was.
Correct. The main target of my complaint was sloppy writing and (in the matter of Harry Kim) childish grudges.
There's certainly some of that, to be sure. And it gets called out by the board membership and staff when it happens with few exceptions. It didn't happen in this thread, though, so your choice to call out the people in this thread in particular that had nothing to do with criticizing women or the female captain, or with "scapegoating Voyager" for anything is bizarre. Why cry wolf and make people take your complaints less seriously when there are plenty of genuine examples of sexism to go after, and which I and several other people in the thread would join you in criticizing?
Also, I don't think you're getting the point of the thread. It's not about crapping on Voyager. Clearly the OP and the participants are big fans of the series and the characters and are attempting to address and explain some oft-mentioned issues on the show in order to bolster fan opinions by saying "this things you were complaining about wasn't actually that bad." It's trying to be supportive of Voyager, not dismissive. If the participants in the thread hated Voyager they probably wouldn't waste time coming up with explanations or defending things, they'd just say "Voyager sucks" and leave it at that.
I can assure you, there is plenty of both racism and sexism among the often-overlapping fandoms of both franchises, but while they are extremely vocal and the squeaky wheel gets the most attention (the things I could tell you about a thankfully permabanned poster named Flying Spaghetti Monster and his rage about Kathleen Kennedy that took over the Star Wars Forum could fill volumes of nonsense), they do not constitute a majority of either franchise's fanbase based on my observation over the past four and a half decades of being a fan of both. Any amount of racism and sexism is too much, of course, and it's not an insignificant amount unfortunately, but most of the fandom of both franchises are good people just trying to enjoy their shows and films and the broader universes.
Well, that's just like... your opinion. You're certainly entitled to think these issues aren't important, but what you aren't entitled to do is to come into the thread and baselessly accuse people of sexism in order to shut down the discussion or try to rile people up. That's not cool. Other people do consider it worthy of discussion, and have done so respectfully with each other, so please do them the courtesy of letting them have their discussion in peace without making ugly and unfair accusations about their motives that aren't in evidence.
Also, how would you feel if your allegedly so much more deep and "worthy" complaints about Voyager were unfairly accused of being sexism or scapegoating? Because using the same standard you applied here of no evidence or cause to support your claims, the same can be just as easily done to you.
Well, it sounds as if you're placing your personal opinions on a pedestal and being dismissive and condescending toward all others, which is not a good look. Also, what, anyone who has a preference of one show over another (a totally natural thing to do) is guilty of scapegoating or poor or unfair judgment, or worse, sexism? That's absurd.
And a simple browsing of any of the forums of the series you mention above will find numerous examples of threads and individual posts lodging the same type of complaints and criticisms being made here. True, when a show is new fans will often be a little defensive about it and engage in some gatekeeping, but that happened/happens with Discovery in addition to Strange New Worlds, although the latter has enjoyed more consistent praise.
But again, since you mentioned criticizing the other shows, which is apparently okay when you do it but not anyone else, imagine if you were having an ethical discussion about Sisko's actions in 'For the Uniform' or "In the Pale Moonlight' and someone who had shown no interest in participating in the discussion before suddenly came in and accused everyone of racism even though Captain Sisko's skin color or ancestry had not been raised once in the thread? What would you conclude? That maybe that person was looking to stir up trouble? That maybe that person was trying to shut down the discussion? That maybe that person hadn't really read through the thread very thoroughly and didn't grasp the point or made gross assumptions about the motives of the posters without evidence? That maybe that person was needlessly defensive about mild criticism of the actions of fictional characters in a fictional universe even though attempts were being made to defend those characters or explain their actions in a new context?
You're not required to take anything seriously or do anything but not try and push people's buttons and shut down the discussion by making baseless accusations.
Have the people in this thread "targeted" Voyager and Discovery more than other shows? I moderate the Disco Forum and enjoy the show, and I enjoy Voyager (in fact my family is right in the middle of a Voyager rewatch) as well, so kindly don't speak for me and my opinion, or assume my motives.
While there are certainly people who target those two shows in particular for sexist reasons (I've had to call out, verbally admonish, and warn them in the Disco Forum on numerous occasions) there are plenty of other people who have perfectly legitimate reasons to criticize those shows over and above others, or to prefer other shows more. Just because there views aren't in lockstep with yours doesn't make their opinion wrong or automatically make them the result of sinister reasoning.
More power to you, but so what? You do you. Let other people do things their own way without ascribing false or bigoted motives.
I don't know of anyone who describes any of the shows as flawless or above criticism. Even the highly-acclaimed SNW get frequent criticism of individual aspects of it, performances, writing issues, or inconsistencies in the review threads.
And it should have ended right there. But instead you chose to insult and insinuate about your fellow posters without justification.
There are certainly plenty of examples where that shoe fits and your commentary would have been fair, but you were way the hell off the mark with this one. This wasn't even intended to put down the show, it was meant to provided supportive explanations. And there was zero mention of the female captain being a problem or criticism of women in the show or general opprobrium toward the show itself.
Then I'm sure it should be absolutely no problem to find some examples of the rampant sexism in this thread and repost them for us? Otherwise, probably time to drop it and just let people enjoy their discussion in peace.
So, you're defending the criticism of this thread (which only has 80 posts so far) as sexist by citing a completely different thread on a completely different subject started by a completely different person? Huh? And, since it apparently needs pointing out again, that thread was started not because the OP hates Janeway themselves, but because they're a fan and are baffled by the Janeway hatred. It was supportive of Janeway, not critical of her. Other people posting in the thread might be critical of her due to the subject matter, but that's not why the OP started it.
And before anyone says anything, I am not the moderator in this forum, so I can't close that thread down even if I felt it were justified to do so, and I'd have to peruse the whole thread to see if it was as ugly as you claim it to be first instead of just taking your word for it.
I have to state that Star Trek is one of the shows which have always had good female characters.
We have Kira Nerys, Jadzia Dax, Ezri Dax, Janeway, Torres, Kes, Dr Crusher and many more so you can't complain over "sexism" or the lack of good female characters in Star Trek.
I started to visit Star Trek Voyager discussion boards in the middle of 1998. Before that I avoided them because I had just started to watch Voyager in 1998 and didn't want too much of what was going to happen to be revealed.
But when Kes was dumped, I didn't give a d**n anymore so I started to visit those boards to finfd out what had happened and to voice my dislike of certain events.
I found that there were mixed emotions about Janeway. Most people did seem to like her but there were also many who disliked her. About 70% for and 30% against, I assume. I guess that there were some of them who disliked her for being a female main character, I can admit that. But not all.
And Kira was and is very popular among the DS9 fans, Jadzia Dax too so I don't think that Star Trek fans in common are against female characters. Possible criticizm has more to do with the quality of the series, the stories, certain characters and such.
Personally I like Janeway. I did that from the start and still do, Even if I think that the character became a bit unstable in certain later episodes. But I blame that on bad writing, not the character as such.
And I don't care if the lead character is a female or not, what is important for me is if the character is good for the show as such.
The reason for my dislike od Discovery has nothing to do with female characters. It's the series as such which is important for me and there are too mant things with Discovery that I don't like. It was the same with Star Trek Enterprise and the NuTrek movies too. I simply find them to be bad made retro series. I' mean, if it is supposed to take place in the TOS era or before TOS, then it should look like TOS or something similar, not an episode or movie from NuBSG.
I haven't watched SNW yet so I don't have an opinion of it yet. At least they are trying to make it look like TOS which is a good sign. Unfortunately, it is made after 2005 so there is a risk that it will be just another 2020's doom-and-gloom gore blodsplattering production with lame characters. We'll see what will happen.
I like Voyager's first three seasons. Season 1 is great, season 2 even better and season 3 good. The rest, meh! And I won't watch season 6 again because of one episode.
DS9 is excellent from start to finish. My only regret is that it took so many years until I got the opportunity to watch the wjhole series, due to stupid policies from certain TV companies and bad DVD discs. But maybe I was lucky to be able to watch all of DS9 after 2010. As I use to say: "The later seasons of Voyager, STar Trek Enterprise and the NuTrek movies almost ruined my interest for Star Trek but DS9 restored it!"
I like TNG and TOS. Great series!
I have mixed emotions when it comes to Picard. Good to see the old TNG favorites but too much of 2020's doom-and-gloom in it. However, Seven Of Nine was a pleasant surprise. For some reasons, she was not a favorite for me in Voyager but I really like her appearance in Picard.
As for flaws and skipping episodes, there are very few episodes in TOS, TNG, DS9 and early Voyager I dislike.
I mostly skip Shades Of Gray and Sarek when I watch TNG. They are boring and I hate those episodes when everything is about some character slowly dying. The same for Lessons which is a sleeping pill.
There are a few DS9 episodes which I almost skip, like those where Sisko in some 20th century mental asylum and some of the too many mirror universe episodes, the same with Ties Of Blood And Water which is one of the out-drawn death episodes I don't like. But all of them are too important for the ongoing story to miss out so I just can't skip them.
As for season 1,2 and 3 of Voyager, the only episode I'm close to skip is Emanations which is plain boring. But so far, I haven't done it. The often criticized Threshold is bad but actually funny to watch if you consider it as a nightmare Tom had after eating too much of Neelix's food.
I haven't watched Voyager's seasons 4-6 in many years and the only episode I have watched in season 7 is Endgame which is horrible. I bought season 4 of Voyager last year but I've only re-watched half of it so far.
Maybe I buy the whole series on Blu-ray if it comes out on Blu-ray. In that case I watch all of it with one exception. There is one episode which I really hate and which I never watch again. My sincere wish is that it will be erased from future isses of DVD.s and Blu-rays.
"Spirit Folk" is pretty bad, isn't it?
Leola root enchiladas, with double hot Bolian salsa. It just wasn't a good idea.
Nothing wrong with disliking a character who rubs you the wrong way. Neelix had plenty of detractors, but no one thinks much of it because he's straight, male, and played by a white actor.
Hmmmmm...........not exactly the episode I was thinking of."Spirit Folk" is pretty bad, isn't it?
However, both Spirit Folk and Fair Haven were so boring that I hardly remember them.
I see them as proof that the "writers" had run out of inspiration then.
Yum, yum!
But not for Tom, it gave him the worst nightmare he ever had.
You have some points there.
Not to mention poor Wesley Crusher!
But I must admit that the hatred towards Wesley had a reversed effect on me. I used to think that Wesley could be a bit annoying but when I discovered the Internet and all the hate towards Wesley on the different Star Trek forums back then, it actually made me start liking Wesley and defend him.
Oh, right, right... could it be... "Favorite Son"?
I liked Wesley, but his constant saving the day got irritating very quickly.
Despite that, one of my favorite TNG moments ever is when he comes out on the Enterprise bridge rocking that red ensign's uniform.
Wesley didn't save the ship as often as people claim. It's like people saying "Beam me up, Scotty", when that phrase was never actually uttered.
Consider these examples of Wesley 'saving the ship'...
"The Naked Now" - I will admit, he DID do just that by his repulsor beam. But he caused the scenario to begin with by taking over Engineering and letting Shimoda remove the control chips.
"Where No One Has Gone Before" - Granted, his final handhold with the Traveler gave him a boost to get the crew home, but it was a concerted effort on the entire crew with focusing. Plus, he looked at Wesley just when he shouldn't have the first time they jumped, which again caused the scenario.
"The Battle" - He discovered the signal, but it was the rest of the senior staff that saved the day.
"The Big Goodbye" - I will agree it was ludicrous that Wesley was the one who knew best the holodeck system instead of an actual engineer. I usually let this slide because the episode is so much fun.
"Datalore" - The writers made the crew look stupid to give Wesley the edge on identifying Lore.
"When The Bough Breaks" - I think he was well utilized here because he was taking care of other children. Plus, he was instrumental in helpibg Beverly get that bioscan. I think he earned the 'save the day' title here without issues.
"Pen Pals" - Picard ordered him to find the cause of the planetary issues... the exact same thing Picard asks of any of his officers. He was doing his job.
"Peak Performance" - He cheated the simulation by bringing the experiment aboard. It was an essential part of saving the day, but he was only a part of the overall plan that multiple crew came up with.
"Evolution" - Again, Wesley actually caused the situation.
"The Enemy" - He came up with the idea for Geordi to use. Arguably, I can see him being an essential part of saving the day. Geordi's life, for sure.
"The High Ground" - Wesley came up with the how, while everyone helped impliment the idea. His own words, "I was just part of the team."
"Menage a Troi" - He figured out the hidden message, which saved Riker, Troi, and Lwaxana. He was essential in saving their lives, not the whole ship.
"Remember Me" - Wesley was the big reason Beverly was saved. He was also the reason she needed saving.
"Final Mission" - He saved his captain's life, not the ship.
If you closely, a vast majority of the times he 'saved the ship', it was because he was the cause of the situation. To me, they cancel each other out. He's saved individuals far more often than the ship itself.
Consider these examples of Wesley 'saving the ship'...
"The Naked Now" - I will admit, he DID do just that by his repulsor beam. But he caused the scenario to begin with by taking over Engineering and letting Shimoda remove the control chips.
"Where No One Has Gone Before" - Granted, his final handhold with the Traveler gave him a boost to get the crew home, but it was a concerted effort on the entire crew with focusing. Plus, he looked at Wesley just when he shouldn't have the first time they jumped, which again caused the scenario.
"The Battle" - He discovered the signal, but it was the rest of the senior staff that saved the day.
"The Big Goodbye" - I will agree it was ludicrous that Wesley was the one who knew best the holodeck system instead of an actual engineer. I usually let this slide because the episode is so much fun.
"Datalore" - The writers made the crew look stupid to give Wesley the edge on identifying Lore.
"When The Bough Breaks" - I think he was well utilized here because he was taking care of other children. Plus, he was instrumental in helpibg Beverly get that bioscan. I think he earned the 'save the day' title here without issues.
"Pen Pals" - Picard ordered him to find the cause of the planetary issues... the exact same thing Picard asks of any of his officers. He was doing his job.
"Peak Performance" - He cheated the simulation by bringing the experiment aboard. It was an essential part of saving the day, but he was only a part of the overall plan that multiple crew came up with.
"Evolution" - Again, Wesley actually caused the situation.
"The Enemy" - He came up with the idea for Geordi to use. Arguably, I can see him being an essential part of saving the day. Geordi's life, for sure.
"The High Ground" - Wesley came up with the how, while everyone helped impliment the idea. His own words, "I was just part of the team."
"Menage a Troi" - He figured out the hidden message, which saved Riker, Troi, and Lwaxana. He was essential in saving their lives, not the whole ship.
"Remember Me" - Wesley was the big reason Beverly was saved. He was also the reason she needed saving.
"Final Mission" - He saved his captain's life, not the ship.
If you closely, a vast majority of the times he 'saved the ship', it was because he was the cause of the situation. To me, they cancel each other out. He's saved individuals far more often than the ship itself.
Don't forget "The Game". Legit ship-saving there.
I actually agree with you on this one. While this episode was pretty dismal, thanks largely to the crummy ending, Wes's actions in this one were actually something a savvy kid might do, instead of Einstein in the body of a 15 year old.
I actually agree with you on this one. While this episode was pretty dismal, thanks largely to the crummy ending, Wes's actions in this one were actually something a savvy kid might do, instead of Einstein in the body of a 15 year old.
V
Vale
Guest
So what I'm hearing is that Wesley is actually a danger to the ship, not a help... 
I count 13 "Saved the Day" or "Helped Save the Day" events. Only 4 "Caused the Problem" events, and one of those was being looked at, rather than doing anything. And my figure excludes "Bough" and "Pen Pals", but includes "The Game". Wes might have been the second string in the proverbial bow, but he was still an integral part of the plan.
Say what you want about Voyager, its principal kid characters (Naomi and Icheb) were much better handled.
Say what you want about Voyager, its principal kid characters (Naomi and Icheb) were much better handled.
Oddish, you are correct about "The Game". However, he was not a lead character at that point in time, being at the Academy. That is why I didn't include it in the list.
I do agree, though, that VOYAGER did handle their children better. By that point in the franchise, they learned from any previous mistakes with children characters.
Best one to take on kids was DS9, though. Not only with a lead character (Jake), but with a secondary character (Nog). Nog had arguably the most development of any character on the show... definitely more than many characters outside of DS9.
I feel like there is a basic reason for this. The writers on DS9 framed the episodes with a character in mind first, while VOYAGER framed episodes with a plot or anomaly first and figure out characters for it after. Not saying it doesn't work, because the format of VOYAGER lends itself more to 'of the week' than DS9, but the difference clearly shows.
I do agree, though, that VOYAGER did handle their children better. By that point in the franchise, they learned from any previous mistakes with children characters.
Best one to take on kids was DS9, though. Not only with a lead character (Jake), but with a secondary character (Nog). Nog had arguably the most development of any character on the show... definitely more than many characters outside of DS9.
I feel like there is a basic reason for this. The writers on DS9 framed the episodes with a character in mind first, while VOYAGER framed episodes with a plot or anomaly first and figure out characters for it after. Not saying it doesn't work, because the format of VOYAGER lends itself more to 'of the week' than DS9, but the difference clearly shows.
I award Nog the silver at most, because of the profound transformation that Ben had, socially, relationship-wise, spiritually, and in terms of his Starfleet career. But pretty impressive for a character who wasn't even in the opening credits!
But that means DS9 understood its characters, including where it was trying to take them. Voyager never knew what to do with characters like Chakotay or Kim.
Yup. And that's why I try not to go too hard on TNG. Certainly, it handled children better than TOS did, in the one show that I know of that featured them.
That's why I said arguably with Nog, because I think Kira won that prize. There are some who think Nog got a bit more than Kira, but not by much.
(I'm thinking the reason for this is because Nog was a virtual blank slate at the beginning, while Kira had her freedom fighting background.)
(I'm thinking the reason for this is because Nog was a virtual blank slate at the beginning, while Kira had her freedom fighting background.)
I admit I have not read the thread, but wanted to give my 5 cents on handling the kid characters.
TOS used kids in several episodes: Jamie in "Court-Martial", the Onlies in "Miri", the brats in "And the Children Shall Lead," and the streetwise smartypants in "A Piece of the Action."
I've sometimes wondered how that streetwise smartypants eventually made out in Kirk's New Syndicate.
Kids in TOS were godawful boring. Honestly, a kid's mother dies on an away mission and he's left in the quarters he shared with his mother, ALONE? With clean clothes, hair impeccably combed, and not giving any impression of grieving?
Real kids get dirty, real kids talk back, and real kids have real emotions. The best depictions of kids in TNG were in "Rascals" and in "Family" (I seem to recall that the same child actor played child-Jean-Luc and Rene, and he was terrific in both parts).
DS9 did kids well. Both Jake and Nog grew up from mischievous kids to responsible adults, with realistic growing pains along the way. Molly was also a realistically-written child.
Voyager... OMG. Sam Wildman has a baby who dies, she gets a replacement from another timeline, and promptly farms her out to be babysat by Neelix, a fake tree on the holodeck, and Seven of Nine.
The Borg kids... Icheb obviously got his sweaters from a bin of them that Wesley must have dropped in the donation bin while Traveling near DS9 and someone there picked them up. The twins were basically pointless characters. I did like Mezoti, and think she should have stayed. It would have been nice for Naomi to have at least one friend who wasn't either an adult or fake. As for the baby, it took the fanfiction authors to remember her. The popular choices of adoptive parents were either Seven (after she and Chakotay became a couple) or Marla Gilmore. Miral didn't do much except get born, so there isn't much to say about her.
I feel like that's a huge missed opportunity for a pretty dark storyline. What if Samantha Wildman didn't accept NOT!Voyager's version of Naomi? What if she considered her real kid killed during the Vidiian attack and this other Naomi was an imposter that she eventually had to reconcile? Could've been interesting instead of "LOL that's Starfleet for you! Yuk! Yuk!
"
Neelix was actually a pretty good child care provider, Treevis was basically Big Bird on Sesame Street, and Seven was the only one on the ship with kid-level people skills. And sadly, Nancy Hower was unavailable so much, some commentators actually believed that her character had been killed.
Two little girls scampering around Voyager and getting into all kinds of trouble... definite potential there. Alas, it was placed in the hands of writers who couldn't even generate a proper self-destruct sequence.
Infants are hard enough to deal with when they aren't covered with plastic stick-on Borg parts. Can't blame Voyager for getting rid of the kid, but they should have told us what happened to her.
feel like that's a huge missed opportunity for a pretty dark storyline. What if Samantha Wildman didn't accept NOT!Voyager's version of Naomi? What if she considered her kid killed by the Vidiian attack and this other Naomi was an imposter that she eventually had to reconcile? Could've been interesting instead of "LOL that's Starfleet for you! Yuk! Yuk!
Urghhh... that's almost "Course Oblivion" or "The Outcast" territory... it's an interesting thought, but glad they didn't do it.
Hmmmm.not quite right since Favorite Son is a season 3 episode. Not to mention that it's actually a good Harry Kim episode even if the whole plot with him being "revealed" as a Taresian is a bit thin.
Yes, I remember that scene!
I did also find his constant saving the day a bit annoying to start with. That was the reason I had some problems with the character.
But all that changed when I started to read al the hatred directed at him. Then I started to like and defend the character.
I must also state that I hate the way he was treated in Journey's End. They really ruined the character. First he come on board and act like a spoiled kid. Then he abandon his Starfleet carreer and leaves with that slimy Traveler.
I mean, they had an opportunity to create a character which could be used in future Star Trek series as a Starfleet Officer and they wasted it. That was character destruction and nothing else.
I actually like The Game. Sort of creepy episode which I like. Best Wesley episode.
Agreed. Just one line, maybe two, mentioning that somebody had adopted her would have been sufficient.
Nope.
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