How to resolve 6 Voyager Inconsistencies in 85 seconds

[Oddish]

Hmmmm.not quite right since Favorite Son is a season 3 episode. Not to mention that it's actually a good Harry Kim episode even if the whole plot with him being "revealed" as a Taresian is a bit thin.

I was tempted to say "Nightingale", but I think the joke is getting stale. I know which episode, and you know I know. Just as you probably know why "Nightingale" pisses me off.

I did also find his constant saving the day a bit annoying to start with. That was the reason I had some problems with the character.

Right. Having the kid save the day every now and then (as Jake did in "Civil Defense" and "Nor the Battle to the Strong") is Ok. But 13 times... that's half a season worth of it.

actually like The Game. Sort of creepy episode which I like. Best Wesley episode.

I do too, though I'm a bit skeptical that Wes would reject playing the thing when Picard would not.

Still, I loved the moment on the Bridge, when the lights go out and Data marches in. And you know he's emotionless, but he still looks like he's pissed as hell and NOT gonna take it anymore.

Agreed. Just one line, maybe two, mentioning that somebody had adopted her would have been sufficient.

Or what I proposed earlier in this topic. Janeway's captain's log mentions Harry recovering and the Borg kids de-Borgified (it's a word. Really). All she had to do was slip in that Seven identified the infant's species, and they were able to return her to her species. About 10 extra seconds* of dialogue, and an optional shot of a baby carrier getting beamed out of Sickbay.

While having the Borg baby wind up adopted would be a cool idea, they'd have to mention her from time to time afterward, which is anathema to what Voyager seemed to be all about.

*8.7 seconds, actually. I checked with a stopwatch.

 

[Lynx]

I was tempted to say "Nightingale", but I think the joke is getting stale. I know which episode, and you know I know. Just as you probably know why "Nightingale" pisses me off.

Sorry, but you have to inform me about your dislike of Nightingale.
When I read your comment here, my first thought was that it must have been one of those really bland and boring episodes since I couldn't remember one single minute of it. Then I checked Memory Alpha and realized that I have never watched that episode.

Right. Having the kid save the day every now and then (as Jake did in "Civil Defense" and "Nor the Battle to the Strong") is Ok. But 13 times... that's half a season worth of it.

I can agree on that. Wesley constantly being the hero of the day was a bit annoying and might have been one of the reasons that so many fans disliked him.

I do too, though I'm a bit skeptical that Wes would reject playing the thing when Picard would not.

Still, I loved the moment on the Bridge, when the lights go out and Data marches in. And you know he's emotionless, but he still looks like he's pissed as hell and NOT gonna take it anymore.

I must admit that the thing with Picard becoming addicted to the game was one of the highlights of that episode, at least when it comes to those unexpected twists which I like.

I mean, that was one of those events in that episode that nearly made me jump or sit straight up in front of the TV, sort of "Oh s**t, Picard is addicted too!"

And that scene with Data is one of my favorite scenes too.

Or what I proposed earlier in this topic. Janeway's captain's log mentions Harry recovering and the Borg kids de-Borgified (it's a word. Really). All she had to do was slip in that Seven identified the infant's species, and they were able to return her to her species. About 10 extra seconds* of dialogue, and an optional shot of a baby carrier getting beamed out of Sickbay.

While having the Borg baby wind up adopted would be a cool idea, they'd have to mention her from time to time afterward, which is anathema to what Voyager seemed to be all about.

*8.7 seconds, actually. I checked with a stopwatch.

I totally agree here.

Unfortunately, there were a lot of sloppy writing and sloppy filming in Voyager.
As I see it, events like these should be explained and showed to the viewers. A character, even as minor as the Borg Baby (both in size and importance) should not simply vanish without an explanation how and why.

The same with those torpedoes and shuttles.

If the premise for a show is a ship lost on the other side of the galaxy with food shortages and alimited numbers off torpedoes and shuttles, then the writers have to stick to that formula.

Which in my book means: No unnecessary use of torpedoes, no destruction of shuttles and the food problem a constant issue for the crew.

That would also mean: No unnecessary use of torpedoes, no shuttle blown to pieces and less of Braga's beloved explosions. And get rid of those phony small boxes with flowers in the Hydroponics Bay and film every scene there in a real greenhouse with lots of plants of all sorts.

If any of those issues should be solved, all in the name of shuttle and torpedo shortage being an obstruction to storytelling and Braga's beloved explosions, then any change or improvement had to be told or showed to the viewers.

Like the Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team (my greatest contribution to Star Trek after restoring Kes ) , or how the food shortage problems are almost solved by Neelix's idea of planting fast-growing Blort roots in the Hydrophonics Bay (Blort roots were found on a strange planet int the Voyager book Chrysalis) or a shortexplanation or view about the Borg Baby being handled over to its own people.

Not to mention the break-up between Kes and Neelix which should have taken place over 2-3 episodes, thus showed and explained to the viewers.

Another thing that actually bothered me were every time Voyager was almost shot to pieces but repaired as quickly as if an army of holographic builders were activated every time the ship had been damaged in some way.

That is most obvious in the episode Deadlock where the ship is terribly damaged. But a week later (or more correctly 10 days since Deadlock took place 19 July 2372 and Innocence took place 30 July 2372 due to my Stardate calculations) the ship look as new again.

Even with an army of 30 holographic builders and repair crew, the ship wouldn't look as if it was new again after 10 days, not with all that damage!

They could at least had some view of some repair crew and some comment about "having had some trouble" when they guided that Drayan delegation around the ship in Innocence. Or on some other occasion in that episode.

Or had Braga locked in somewhere and not being allowed to come out until he had rewritten the scenarios.

RICK BERMAN: "I'm ordering you Brannon! NO MORE EXPLOSIONS AND NO MORE DAMAGE TO THE SHIP! Is that understood?"

 

[Lynx]

Nope.

I hope that you are right!

 

[Oddish]

Sorry, but you have to inform me about your dislike of Nightingale.
When I read your comment here, my first thought was that it must have been one of those really bland and boring episodes since I couldn't remember one single minute of it. Then I checked Memory Alpha and realized that I have never watched that episode.

Do yourself a favor: don't watch it on my account. Spoiler alert: Harry finally complains to Janeway that he's still a @*#$-ing ensign after 7 years. She shuts him down hard, and the issue remains unresolved.

any of those issues should be solved, all in the name of shuttle and torpedo shortage being an obstruction to storytelling and Braga's beloved explosions, then any change or improvement had to be told or showed to the viewers.

That's been my point. Especially when it was a simple matter to resolve. I came up with two perfectly serviceable explanations for why Voyager had an infinite torpedo supply (new industrial replicator, or traded with a race that has compatible tech). Either could have been implemented in seconds.

If they wanted to take it to the next level, have the art department draw the torpedoes in a different color from then on.

Not to mention the break-up between Kes and Neelix which should have taken place over 2-3 episodes, thus showed and explained to the viewers.

While I agree, it should have been better shown, it was more of a "broken arm" issue, requiring serious effort to fix. I've tried to focus on "band-aid" issues in this topic. But VOY had quite a few of both.

Another thing that actually bothered me were every time Voyager was almost shot to pieces but repaired as quickly as if an army of holographic builders were activated every time the ship had been damaged in some way.

Agreed. And as I did in a recent story, have Voyager actually lose capabilities from time to time. Blow out a phaser array so Voyager can't shoot in that direction anymore. Burn out some sensors. Turn a science lab into a scrap heap. Have to run on impulse for a month. Frickin' do SOMETHING!

RICK BERMAN: "I'm ordering you Brannon! NO MORE EXPLOSIONS AND NO MORE DAMAGE TO THE SHIP! Is that understood?"

About time he did something to make VOY better, given the number of great ideas he reportedly torpedoed.

 

[fireproof78]

I hope that you are right!

Well, I doubt it will be to your sensibility but it definitely isn't bloody.

 

[Oddish]

Well, I doubt it will be to your sensibility but it definitely isn't bloody.

There's definitely some violence, and it's not cartoonish like TOS and (to a lesser extent) TNG. But it seems to make the TV PG threshold.

It's not as dark as serialized Trek, but it's not afraid to give us the occasional dark ending. Indeed, one of the episodes (won't say which), it took me a day or two to recover from emotionally. I can only think of one episode in all of Trek that was decisively more tragic.

 

[fireproof78]

There's definitely some violence, and it's not cartoonish like TOS and (to a lesser extent) TNG. But it seems to make the TV PG threshold.

It's not as dark as serialized Trek, but it's not afraid to give us the occasional dark ending. Indeed, one of the episodes (won't say which), it took me a day or two to recover from emotionally. I can only think of one episode in all of Trek that was decisively more tragic.

As I said, I doubt it will be to their sensibility because it is willing to have the dark, which is closer to TOS with episodes like City on the Edge of Forever, like Balance of Terror, even with something like the Naked Time. Happily ever after was not always the outcome.

 

[Oddish]

True. And Trek is a better series for it. I never said either episode was bad... just emotionally affecting.

 

[fireproof78]

True. And Trek is a better series for it. I never said either episode was bad... just emotionally affecting.

Nor would I call the episode bad either. I am noting a different style of storytelling that isn't quite in line with a Berman style but more akin to TOS.

 

[Oddish]

I actually see some similarities with all three eras in SNW. Best of all three worlds, maybe?

 

[Lynx]

Do yourself a favor: don't watch it on my account. Spoiler alert: Harry finally complains to Janeway that he's still a @*#$-ing ensign after 7 years. She shuts him down hard, and the issue remains unresolved.

I have to buy season 7 on DVD first and I wonder if I ever will do that.

That's been my point. Especially when it was a simple matter to resolve. I came up with two perfectly serviceable explanations for why Voyager had an infinite torpedo supply (new industrial replicator, or traded with a race that has compatible tech). Either could have been implemented in seconds.

If they wanted to take it to the next level, have the art department draw the torpedoes in a different color from then on.

Or come up with the idea of The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team!

While I agree, it should have been better shown, it was more of a "broken arm" issue, requiring serious effort to fix. I've tried to focus on "band-aid" issues in this topic. But VOY had quite a few of both.

Here we actually had an important change in the lives of two main characters and they couldn't even come up with a decent story about it.

But berman, Braga and Taylor were lousy when it came to relations between characters. It was almost the same in TNG too.

Agreed. And as I did in a recent story, have Voyager actually lose capabilities from time to time. Blow out a phaser array so Voyager can't shoot in that direction anymore. Burn out some sensors. Turn a science lab into a scrap heap. Have to run on impulse for a month. Frickin' do SOMETHING!

The DS9 writers were much better to come up to such scenarios.

Nor would I call the episode bad either. I am noting a different style of storytelling that isn't quite in line with a Berman style but more akin to TOS.

Well, TOS storytelling look promising, as long as they stay away from the constant doom-and-gloom scenarios in almost all series made after 2005.

Now, let us hope for a decent 24th century series too. [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Farscape One]

Of the people who were showrunners in the Berman era and actually wrote episodes... Roddenberry, Hurley, Berman, Piller, Taylor, Behr, Braga, Biller, Coto... who do you all think was the best overall?

Personally, I lean heavily toward Michael Piller and Ira Steven Behr, with Coto being close behind them. (He only got to be a showrunner for 1 year, but damn... what an excwllent year.)

Everyone mentioned wrote good episodes or were part of writing good ones, so it's unfair to call any of them bad writers. Some are better writers than showrunners... I'd probably put Kenneth Biller in that category.

 

[Oddish]

have to buy season 7 on DVD first

I wouldn't. It's pretty unexceptional, and the ending is just infuriating.

Or come up with the idea of The Shuttle and Torpedo Building Team!

Or adapt the idea of the SATBIT to your own ends. As I did.

But berman, Braga and Taylor were lousy when it came to relations between characters. It was almost the same in TNG too.

There were no relationships between characters, at least until the third TNG movie. Just a lot of P/C and R/T innuendo, and Geordi getting friend-zoned a lot.

 

[Lynx]

I wouldn't. It's pretty unexceptional, and the ending is just infuriating.

Well, then I haven't missed anything.

But there is somethhing missing in season seven which should have been there in the beginning of the season.

The events in Coming Home! The best Voyager episode never made!

As for Endgame, I did watch it. Something I actually regret. Horrible episode.

Or adapt the idea of the SATBIT to your own ends. As I did.

Which I'm very grateful for!

There were no relationships between characters, at least until the third TNG movie. Just a lot of P/C and R/T innuendo, and Geordi getting friend-zoned a lot.

Which actually proves my point.

And when they actually tried, it looked static and unrealistic, like Picard and Crusher in some episodes and Troi's rekationship to Worf.

And then of course we had Troi's relationship with Devinion Ral and Ves Alkar, which looked almost like character destruction when it came to how it made Troi look. Talk about slimy and mean characters.

Even Dukat or Culluh would have been a better match for her.

 

[at Quark's]

I actually like The Game. Sort of creepy episode which I like. Best Wesley episode.

It's not a bad episode tension-wise, and I don't begrudge Wesley his action (and possibly getting a bit of action with ensign Lefler as well). It's just that the amount of stupidity and injudiciousness I'd have to assume for the elite and supposedly highly trained Enterprise crew for this scheme to work in the first place requires too much suspension of disbelief for me.

 

[Oddish]

Which I'm very grateful for!

As am I.

And then of course we had Troi's relationship with Devinion Ral and Ves Alkar, which looked almost like character destruction when it came to how it made Troi look. Talk about slimy and mean characters.

Even Dukat or Culluh would have been a better match for her.

Well, Alcar wasn't really a relationship per se, it had to be some kind of a psychic tether that ensured Deanna would stay close to him, so that he could continue to... well, whatever he was doing.

It's just that the amount of stupidity and injudiciousness I'd have to assume for the elite and supposedly highly trained Enterprise crew for this scheme to work in the first place requires too much suspension of disbelief for me.

Given that it was possible to force the "game" on other people, I can see how it could theoretically happen. All you need is 3-4 addicts, and they can subdue and assimilate a few more, one victim at a time. Then, once you have six, break into two teams, and the control spreads exponentially from there. Given Picard's fondness for games, I wager he was one of the non-volunteers.

The events in Coming Home! The best Voyager episode never made!

Well now I'm intrigued. Is that on the Kes Webpage?

 

[fireproof78]

Well, TOS storytelling look promising, as long as they stay away from the constant doom-and-gloom scenarios in almost all series made after 2005.

You and I define "doom and gloom" and "constant" very differently.

 

[MarkusTay]

I haven't read through the entire thread, but to address some of the OP problems...

I used to think the 'power problem' was an issue, until I was rewatching thew show and in season four's episode Day of Honor, they run into those people (Caatati) who's race had recently been assimilated. Some bad stuff happened, and in the end Seven just whipped-up a new kind of replicator that could literally CREATE ENERGY. Now, its Thorium energy, which the alien civilization was based completely on, but if there is one thing ST-magic is good at, its adapting stuff to other stuff, so how hard would it have been to create some sort of regulator and changed-over many of the ships systems to use Thorium, which they seem to suddenly have a nigh-infinite supply of? Now apply this forward - Seven was privy to many, MANY technologies the Federation didn't have, so its no wonder most of their supply problems ended abruptly.

Add to that that the 'problem' with how slow the ship is moving/progressing ties directly into why they had more supplies, and unlimited torpedoes/energy later on - they had been meeting other races and trading. We only see a portion of that, because most of the time its pretty boring, and that does not make for good episodes (the same applies to all ST shows, except maybe DS9 we don't see most of the day-to-day, boring workings of what goes on to maintain a ship - we just assume all of that is going on and we are only seeing the 'exciting bits' when something goes wrong. What would they be able to trade with? Well, Seven's fabricated Thorium, for one.I'm sure she came up with other nifty stuff, but thats all they'd need, because a LOT of what they could trade with they could make with the now fully powered (by Thorium) replicators, being that most Delta Quadrant species were far behind the Federation and didn't have replicator technology. Hell, in Kazon space water was a valuable commodity.

Lastly, in some fanfic sort of stuff I am working on, I've established that Janeway was completely nuts the whole time, which would explain QUITE a lot. For example, people DID choose to leave for the 37's... she just threw them out an airlock as traitors. The whole show takes place in Janeway's head, and what really happened was so much more horrific. Much like what happened at the end of Enterprise, we are watching the 'official version' on a holodeck. Of course, that certainly isn't canon, but it could very well explain EVERYTHING. LOL

 

[at Quark's]

Lastly, in some fanfic sort of stuff I am working on, I've established that Janeway was completely nuts the whole time, which would explain QUITE a lot. For example, people DID choose to leave for the 37's... she just threw them out an airlock as traitors. The whole show takes place in Janeway's head, and what really happened was so much more horrific. Much like what happened at the end of Enterprise, we are watching the 'official version' on a holodeck. Of course, that certainly isn't canon, but it could very well explain EVERYTHING. LOL

<Cue Battlestar Galactica (original series) episode closing music>
Fleeing from the Janeway Tyranny, those who lost the battle under the stars in the galaxy, form a rag-tag fugitive band on a lonely quest ... to travel no further in the direction of a shining planet, known as Earth.

 

[Oddish]

Lastly, in some fanfic sort of stuff I am working on, I've established that Janeway was completely nuts the whole time, which would explain QUITE a lot. For example, people DID choose to leave for the 37's... she just threw them out an airlock as traitors. The whole show takes place in Janeway's head, and what really happened was so much more horrific. Much like what happened at the end of Enterprise, we are watching the 'official version' on a holodeck. Of course, that certainly isn't canon, but it could very well explain EVERYTHING. LOL

Maybe it's like "Coda" but it never ended. She's in an interminable death delirium. And the next day, they stuff her in a torpedo tube, shoot her into space, and continue homeward with Chakotay as captain, unaware of the incredibly realistic Vanishing Point style hallucination that finally ended when Janeway's brain activity died down...