GOD I miss Firefly...
News Female Same-Sex Couple For Discovery?
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Humans are not a sexually dimorphic species. First of all, we overwhelmingly use that phrase wrong; sexual dimorphism refers to much more extreme differences than seen in humans (like female spiders who are five times the mass of their counterparts). There are no secondary or tertiary sexual characteristics that are unique to one human sex; males develop breasts, females grow facial hair, sizes vary wildly by the individual. Not sexually dimorphic.
Secondly, sex is not, strictly speaking, binary; currently there are seventeen different intersex conditions one might be diagnosed with, and of course that just means that those conditions have been studied enough to classify.
Both sex and gender are socially constructed, and far more complicated than anyone in this conversation seems to want them to be.
And while I'm dropping mics, those ladies on Discovery were hella gay.
Somewhat disagree, though it might just be semantics. Sexual dimorphism is any consistent (or somewhat consistent) biological difference between sexes. It doesn't strictly mean size or anatomy; male and female mallard ducks, for example, have ALMOST the same genitals even though they have different reproductive organs internally, but more importantly, the males have brighter colored feathers (to attract mates) and the females are more brown and mottled (make better camouflage).
I've also had a really huge amount of experience with developmental differences between boys and girls, enough to know that females DEFINITELY mature faster than males, emotionally, physically, psychologically, sexually, mentally, etc. Boys almost universally lag behind girls in physical strength and agility until puberty (which, for boys, begins later) and lag emotionally even longer. That's not even a dimorphism, it's just a biological difference.
Not sure about that one, but it's a good point. More research would be helpful.
Disagree. Sex is a biological construct primarily and has to do with anatomy. How we IDENTIFY sex is a social construct to some degree and that has to do with language and cultural norms. But the sex of a particular person would be determined by the presence or absence of a Y-chromosome or other (rare?) genetic conditions that might result in an additional X chromosome or some genes being expressed weirdly in the Y.
I think that gender identity and sexual orientation are largely genetic and HOW WE DEAL WITH THEM are social constructs. It's complicated and confusing, and human beings have an infinite capacity to fuck things up so I doubt it's going to get less so in the future.
Wait, if you acknowledge that you're "not sure" about the fact that intersex conditions are a thing (despite, y'know, having the whole internet at your fingertips) then why are you still talking like you have any kind of authority on this topic?
Just one thing I realized after re-reading my previous post, when I said "You don't change your gender" I meant that when transitioning you don't change your gender, but your sex gets reassigned. I was not denying the existence of genderfluid people, just to be clear about that.
I have not done extensive research on the subject, but from what I gather most hormonal effects on sex and gender are prenatal, as are genetics and since you imply that life experiences and psychological development have a lesser effect on gender identity that does kinda sound like gender is pretty much determined prenatal or at least in early stages of development. I may be wrong here, if anyone can link me to something like a research paper or something, I'd be greatful.
I'm with you here, concerning gender not being strictly binary, but I also think that non-binary would fall under the trans-umbrella.
All I'm saying is that for trans representation we need trans characters.
Because I haven't made up my mind about how "intersex conditions" factor into this at all, and the research on that topic is sparse and sometimes contradictory. It's an interesting topic, to be sure, but it's hard to say if intersex conditions are an ordered variation from "normal" human parameters or exceptional cases.
Also, serious question: since when does one need "authority" to have a perspective on this topic?
How exactly does one determine if something is a rare ordered variation or an exceptional case?
I may be misremembering but I think May 2011. I could be some months off, though.
I have no idea what that paragraph means. Why do you need to make your mind up about documented biological facts of the human condition?
I didn't say you needed authority to have a perspective. But if you're gonna come tell someone that their perspective is wrong, particularly someone whose perspective is that they live this topic, you'd better have more to back that up than "Well I didn't know about that yet."
My perspective as a black woman on issues that effect me IMO anyone can discuss them but they need to recognise unless they are a black woman my real experience trumps theirs, however my experience is not the default for every black woman. I do not believe in shutting down opposing viewpoints, people who are trans might have a different pov or might agree with me regarding their experiences.
However message boards are not democracies.
Okay, that makes more sense.
There have been a lot of articles suggesting this is the case, but the research doesn't actually say this. From what I can tell, there are prenatal factors linked to gender identity and scientists are not sure what role they actually play, whether they are causative or probabilistic or whether both are related to other factors.
The problem is, the research is confounded by the fact that they're trying to study causes for things that are inherently difficult to quantify. We're not even sure -- scientifically speaking -- what gender even IS, let alone what causes differentiation from one person to another.
Not necessarily. We think of gender as "masculine" and "feminine" because gender identity is socially constructed in a way consistent with sexual dimorphism and human evolution. But suppose there are multiple masculine and multiple feminine genders that don't have anything to do with sexuality and more to do with more basic human social instincts? There might be multiple male genders and multiple female genders, there might be genders that are universal to both.
It's just not something we (humans and/or the scientific community) really understand right now.
No argument here.
Some data that would make it clear whether or not intersex conditions are actually alternate sexes rather than variations within the normal male and female dimorphism.
Put it this way: My uncle was diagnosed with (and eventually died from) Marfan Syndrome. Does that make him a subspecies of homo-sapiens marfanus, or does that make him an otherwise normal human who happens to have marfan syndrome?
So I have a right to my own perspective, just as long as it's exactly the same as everyone else's?
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That's... An entirely you question. I have no idea where you're getting that a different sex changes one's species.
If you wanna be wrong, dude, that's on you.So I have a right to my own perspective, just as long as it's exactly the same as everyone else's?
It has to do with whether or not intersex conditions are separate sexes or just variations on the usual "male" and "female" dimorphisms in humans.
Formally:
Condition X has properties of conditions A and B.
Is condition X a subset of conditions A and B, or is it a third condition that has elements of both?
At the moment, they seem to be subsets, but the research into the subject is not all that conclusive so it's difficult to say for sure. I DO know that having more than two sexes is extremely rare for mammals, so this is unlikely to be the case with humans.
I thought we weren't allowed to use "dude" anymore?
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So rather than come to an hypothesis using all of the data, you came to an hypothesis using limited data and now need to make the new data fit it rather than acknowledge that the initial hypothesis might have been wrong.
Prior to making a sideways step into forensics I was an evolutionary psychologist. My research was into modularity of social cognition and it's basis in selection pressures. I dare say I don't need your help with questions of nature and nurture.
Nonetheless where it comes to the experience of gender assignment and the culture surrounding it I'll happily step aside and just listen where Possum's concerned as she is simply in a far better position to give an informed opinion and that is what matters here, not a half baked "debate" into the nature of gender as identity. This isn't "how many decks does the enterprise have" or "how fast is transwarp". This is about the real life experiences of a group of people who are proportionately very common in the fan base.
Not only is Possum herself trans but she is an active member of the trans community and well able to act as a weather vane for the prevailing winds there. You should listen to her rather than trying to tell her about a subject she is far better versed in than you or I. Again, I'm guessing you wouldn't read about periods or the menopause and try to explain what they feel like to a cis woman.
What she is saying fits entirely with what I have heard expressed elsewhere (and by other, less open or prominent, trans posters here - and they do exist) that what people tend to feel is missing isn't debate into "trans issues", but rather the empathy that stems from positive representation. They just want to be seen onscreen as something other than freaks, monsters or the butt of jokes.
It was portrayed as being common in the culture universe, at least four examples spring to mind off the cuff
you're allowed to have your own perspective, it's that when someone who actually has more/first hand experience, you should listen, take that on board, learn, and change your perspective accordingly.
The initial hypothesis -- that humans are no different from other animals -- on Earth in that we have two distinct sexes -- could well be wrong. The research on intersex conditions does not, in my opinion, indicate that it is. It MIGHT eventually, but there isn't enough information to draw that conclusion yet.
And I'm pretty sure I already acknowledged that this is a totally valid concern, one that resonates with me in a lot of different ways. I was speculating on whether or not that portrayal would be a straight "insert token character" moment or something more organic and natural like Culber/Stamets.
I don't generally share my personal background on message boards because I'm not comfortable leaking (too much) personal information in an attempt to win credibility with people who don't actually care who I am or what I know, but I would caution you (and most people in general) not to assume my perspective is totally uninformed.
Agreed, Culber and Stamets were, initially at least, a very positive portrayal of a same sex couple and it's a shame they fell into the "kill your gays" trope.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were every transgender person in the known universe. I'll remember that in the future.
I wasn't talking about you.
I never suggested you did.
"Forced" no, but the fundamental fact of BEING transgender is an attempt to be something you (currently) are not. As another analogy: a medical student is in the process of becoming a doctor, a cadet is in the process of becoming an officer, a child is in the process of becoming an adult, etc. In the same way, a transwoman is in the process of becoming a woman. That's a process that requires a certain amount of commitment and, more importantly, a GREAT deal of certainty that transitioning to a new gender is actually the right move. Even medical school and officer training are pretty easy by comparison.
My point, actually, is that with advances in medical technology, it may not be that difficult in the future. Basically this: in a world where you could implant knowledge with a syringe, there would be no such thing as a "medical student." In a world where you could change genders with a trek-style retrovirus or a transporter setting at any community hospital, there would be no such thing as "transgender person."
That's debatable, but gender identity fluctuates with age and time for many people and varies dramatically from person to person. I doubt it's actually "hard wired" as much as it is an emergent property of human personalities, and then there's a question of how much of our personalities are innate and how much of those behaviors are learned. But that's the whole "nature vs. nurture" can of worms again...
Well, the "most common" is basically "the norm" so I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with here.
I'm not talking about reality, unfortunately. I'm talking about the "better world" Star Trek aspires to show us.
I have, and I do. You seem to be taking the extra effort to FIND disagreement, though.
Your attempts to troll and change the debate are boring me. I’m done wasting my time with you.
That was a indeed a massively disappointing plot twist.
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