Fargo, Season 5. Bout darn time

[the G-man]

Curious about the wife as well who we saw being put in handcuffs. Which reminds. me. I feel bad for her kids. Both mom and dad are going to jail. I guess that means they will be put in the foster system.

The feds might have later cut her a deal, especially given the abuse Roy heaped on her.

Usually, the foster care system places kids with (hopefully) suitable relatives first. It’s not outside the realm of possibility there’s a family member out there who wasn’t part of the “cult.”

Be ironic as hell for Roy’s kids to become wards of “the state” though.

 

[Jayson1]

I agree that he should have shot him. Writers kind of wrote themselves in a hole in that moment. If they were going to kill him I think maybe they should have went for a shock as to how it happens such as Roy's wife killing him while he tries to help her because he knows she has been abused as well.

 

[Starkers]

I guess the point is Witt wasn't a killer, and shooting at people shooting at you in the heat of battle is different to shooting a man who's standing a few feet away, even if you know exactly what kind of man he is. Roy is a killer, he doesn't it without compunction, he's in the right, always, he doesn't have to think these things through. Witt on the other hand is a decent man and unfortunately in that situation it cost him his life, although him being a decent man is also partly what saved Dot.

 

[the G-man]

I guess the point is Witt wasn't a killer, and shooting at people shooting at you in the heat of battle is different to shooting a man who's standing a few feet away, even if you know exactly what kind of man he is. Roy is a killer, he doesn't it without compunction, he's in the right, always, he doesn't have to think these things through. Witt on the other hand is a decent man and unfortunately in that situation it cost him his life, although him being a decent man is also partly what saved Dot.

There’s decent and there’s stupid. At that moment, the writers took a decent man and made him a stupid one just to advance the plot.

 

[1001001]

I was actually almost angry at Witt for dying like that. He had every damn reason on earth to shoot Roy on sight, he knew exactly how dangerous Roy was, and he still all but let Roy kill him.

As my wife observed, Witt brought a gun to a knife fight and still lost.

I guess it was necessary that Roy not be killed so that he and Lorraine could have their prison scene. But yes, as soon as he gave Roy one direction to drop the knife, he should have shot him right in his fat stupid head.

 

[the G-man]

I agree that he should have shot him. Writers kind of wrote themselves in a hole in that moment. If they were going to kill him I think maybe they should have went for a shock as to how it happens such as Roy's wife killing him while he tries to help her because he knows she has been abused as well.

The more I think about this option, the more I think the writers made a mistake not doing something like this. While I acknowledge that there was a glimmer of understanding in Karen's eyes at what Dot said near the end, she was obviously too far gone (and given her father, certainly a virulant racist) to not have shot Witt if he tried to help her.

On another note, and speaking of Odin, I was surprised at the lack of military style weapons in the militia during the standoff. Most of them had pretty common hunting rifles and even the semi-autos they showed aren't that far off from what I could buy even in heavily regulated New York. Given some of the foreshadowing about Roy skimming the feds for SWAT gear, etc., I was half expecting them to have a friggin' tank on the ranch and a bunch of machine guns.

 

[Jayson1]

There’s decent and there’s stupid. At that moment, the writers took a decent man and made him a stupid one just to advance the plot.

Well their is that famous Dark Helmet quote:

" So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb"

 

[JirinPanthosa]

So, I have one episode left to watch. I know Fargo seasons tend to end with tragedy. But in this case if we don’t get to see Roy Tillman die and Dorothy get home to her family I will be angry.

Jon Hamm made me hate a character even more than Jaffrey Baratheon and Ramsay Bolton combined. He is everything wrong with America right now. They’d better give me my payoff of seeing him suffer and die.

 

[CaptainWacky]

Witt believed in justice, believed in a world where a good guy with a gun can arrest a bad guy with a knife without shooting him. He was an actual good guy in a wolrd where actual good guys can't be cops, or can't deal with people like Roy anyway.

He also thought by going down that tunnel by himself he was repaying his debt to Dot, even though it would have been far more sensible to wake for back up (and it turned out his sacrifice meant nothing anyway because Roy just got arrested at the other side.) As Dot said earlier, every debt need not be repaid, if the person who owes the debt isn't equiped to pay it.

 

[Starkers]

(and it turned out his sacrifice meant nothing anyway because Roy just got arrested at the other side.)

I was thinking about this, you can argue Witt died for nothing, but it also means Roy killed him for nothing (outside of momentary gratification). In fact, and I don't know enough about the American legal system to know if this is the case, but would the murder of a state trooper if not increase Roy's sentence, make any eventual parole far less likely?

 

[Kraig]

I was thinking about this, you can argue Witt died for nothing, but it also means Roy killed him for nothing (outside of momentary gratification). In fact, and I don't know enough about the American legal system to know if this is the case, but would the murder of a state trooper if not increase Roy's sentence, make any eventual parole far less likely?

When Mrs. Lyon visits Roy he is in the Federal Penitentiary and is doing federal time. If the Federal government was to ever release him it would be to the State of North Dakota to start his sentence for the state crimes he has committed in North Dakota.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

They also found the bodies of Dave Foley and Linda in there, so he was up for multiple murders, not just Witt.

Finally saw the ending. I loved the last 20 minutes. The series echoed the ending of No Country For Old Men but instead Dorothy managed to talk him down with logic and niceness. And baking.

Anyone else find it weird that political corruption saved the day? The mother in law got the compound raided by calling "The Orange Idiot". With a more principled president, Dorothy would have died. The omnipotent influential force of American billionaires was the hero of season 5.

In season 5 the only Fargo season with no reference at all to any prior Fargo content?

 

[Starkers]

^ plus his father in law. I suppose the point I was making, quite poorly, was whether the murder of a peace officer would make matters worse for Roy. I suppose he could try and wriggle out of Danish and Linda's murders, or at least plant the seeds of doubt, but Witt is nailed on to him, as was his father in law's.

I'm still a little disappointed that there wasn't some sort of comeuppance for Lorraine, even if she turned out to be less of a villain that it might first have appeared.

It's still possible Dot could have made her own escape, just would have been a lot harder.

As far as I can tell there's no links to other seasons, outside of Jason Schwartzman doing a voice over for "The Tiger" but he wasn't in character as Josto so it was more of an Easter egg than a reference. If anything season 5 might have had more in common with the film than the previous seasons.

 

[the G-man]

I was thinking about this, you can argue Witt died for nothing, but it also means Roy killed him for nothing (outside of momentary gratification). In fact, and I don't know enough about the American legal system to know if this is the case, but would the murder of a state trooper if not increase Roy's sentence, make any eventual parole far less likely?

Roy's in prison on federal charges. Witt's murder would have have been state charges (same with Danish and Linda's). The murders might be viewed as aggravating factors and, quite likely, resulted in separate state sentences that may or may not be running concurrently. Still, you can only give someone life so many times so, yeah, Witt's death probably didn't really mean anything.

Anyone else find it weird that political corruption saved the day? The mother in law got the compound raided by calling "The Orange Idiot". With a more principled president, Dorothy would have died. The omnipotent influential force of American billionaires was the hero of season 5.

I did notice that. I also noticed the complicated relationship with debt for similar reasons. If not for Lorraine's predatory lending business, not only would Dot be dead, but Olmstead would be stuck in a dead end job and Roy would still be sheriff. In a way, that made the season better since it didn't try to hammer us over the head with a black and white obvious message.

 

[Jayson1]

I was thinking about this, you can argue Witt died for nothing, but it also means Roy killed him for nothing (outside of momentary gratification). In fact, and I don't know enough about the American legal system to know if this is the case, but would the murder of a state trooper if not increase Roy's sentence, make any eventual p

^ plus his father in law. I suppose the point I was making, quite poorly, was whether the murder of a peace officer would make matters worse for Roy. I suppose he could try and wriggle out of Danish and Linda's murders, or at least plant the seeds of doubt, but Witt is nailed on to him, as was his father in law's.

I'm still a little disappointed that there wasn't some sort of comeuppance for Lorraine, even if she turned out to be less of a villain that it might first have appeared.

It's still possible Dot could have made her own escape, just would have been a lot harder.

As far as I can tell there's no links to other seasons, outside of Jason Schwartzman doing a voice over for "The Tiger" but he wasn't in character as Josto so it was more of an Easter egg than a reference. If anything season 5 might have had more in common with the film than the previous seasons.

Not canon based links but I did notice some links to the movie. Like Wayne working at the car place. Their is even a reference to Trucoat. Wayne basically had the same job as Jerry Lundegaard. Plus Dot's daughter has the same name as his son in the movie which was also Scotty.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Is Lorraine the third wife?

Let's be honest, the moment she got a little older she would have ended up in a grave. Her father was more practical and rational than Roy Tillman but not any more moral, and she was married off to Roy in medieval fashion after being raised to believe he was the ideal man. She is a victim of her upbringing, so I have more empathy for her than the other bad guys.

 

[the G-man]

Is Lorraine the third wife?

Let's be honest, the moment she got a little older she would have ended up in a grave. Her father was more practical and rational than Roy Tillman but not any more moral, and she was married off to Roy in medieval fashion after being raised to believe he was the ideal man. She is a victim of her upbringing, so I have more empathy for her than the other bad guys.

Lorraine was the billionaire mother in law. Karen (heh) was the third wife.

But, yeah, Karen's upbringing (and probable years of abuse by her dad and Roy), to the point of basically Stockholm Syndrome would explain a lot about her behavior and why I think the feds may have been easier on her than they might have otherwise.

 

[Jayson1]

The one issue though is she didn't just look away towards sexual abuse. There was also murdering involved. I am thinking that they might go harder towards her because of that. I guess it depends on just how much she knew. Did she know their were dead people buried in a pit not to far from the house. I'm sure that is something the cops will investigate.

Speaking of arrests I wonder if even Dot might get charged for something by switching the name tags in the hospital that led to that one guy being kidnapped and killed because they thought he was Wayne. Would that be involuntary manslaughter?

 

[Kraig]

Speaking of arrests I wonder if even Dot might get charged for something by switching the name tags in the hospital that led to that one guy being kidnapped and killed because they thought he was Wayne. Would that be involuntary manslaughter?

I am not a lawyer, but from a quick internet search.

Minnesota statutes criminal code don't list a crime of involuntary manslaughter. The closest thing would probably be Manslaughter in the second degree. (1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another.

I don't think swapping names on a hospital ward door would do the trick, unless he died in the hospital because the hospital staff acted on the name listed on the door and gave the guy the wrong medication. But hospitals always scan the wrist band on the patient and ask for the patient's name and date of birth before administrating medications, or performing procedures. Those names on the door are more for visitors, than for medical staff.

He died because of the federal crime of kidnapping and being taken across state lines, and shot dead by Roy when he found out they were torturing and kidnapped the wrong person. That was just a case of criminals being stupid. They should have had a picture of the person they were supposed to kidnap.

 

[Jayson1]

That makes sense. I bet the family of that guy might sue the hospital for not providing necessary security to protects it's patients.