DS9 on blu ray?

[FrontierTrek]

CBS-D certainly has people with the passion to do DS9 in HD right; they just need the go ahead (and the $$$) from CBS corporate to do that.

It's first and foremost the money they need. That's where the crux lies. Right now it seems that TNG in HD isn't doing as well as we first thought it might. There was a bit of a hype with the first few seasons and 1-3 consistently ranked within the top 100 blu rays at amazon even several months after their release. Look at season 5 now, it's nowhere to be seen let alone the previous seasons.

I think it was Frontier Trek who mentioned when season 1 was released that it cost 9 million to remaster. That's 63 million for the entire series. This is a huge amount of money they need to earn back before they even start making a profit. I'm optimistic it will happen in the long term some day. However, I'm not convinced that's a popular business model in the entertainment industry. As a result, it seems doubtful at this stage they will green light DS9 or Voyager which have far less recognition than TNG and, therefore, would take much longer to earn a return on an investment.

9 million was the budget for the whole project, not just season one.

 

[Harvey]

In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.

EDIT: For those interested, here's a site that lists home video sales. Here are the Blu-Ray charts for the week season four/Redemption came out:

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/top-sellers/top-20-selling-blu-ray-discs-week-ended-080413

 

[Jefferies]

In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.

I agree, this does make the project seem a lot more feasable. Makes me wonder why they are dragging their feet about DS9 and Voyager so much? For 9 million per series it can't be that huge a risk of an investment surely?

 

[borgboy]

9 million per series does sound very feasable to me too, and makes me more optimistic that they can make their money back on DS9 and VOY blu rays.

 

[FrontierTrek]

In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.

I agree, this does make the project seem a lot more feasable. Makes me wonder why they are dragging their feet about DS9 and Voyager so much? For 9 million per series it can't be that huge a risk of an investment surely?

I never said 9 million per series. TNG had a 9 million budget. Any budget for DS9 or Voyager would automatically be higher due to the seriously increased workload from re-doing the CG.

 

[Mage]

In that case, CBS has probably made back that money already, just in home video sales alone.

I agree, this does make the project seem a lot more feasable. Makes me wonder why they are dragging their feet about DS9 and Voyager so much? For 9 million per series it can't be that huge a risk of an investment surely?

I never said 9 million per series. TNG had a 9 million budget. Any budget for DS9 or Voyager would automatically be higher due to the seriously increased workload from re-doing the CG.

Didn't I read somewhere that they don't have to redo all the CGI? That a lot of the scenes were still on a back-up owned by one of the old artists of the company who did the CGI?

Or am I misremembering now?

 

[Jefferies]

I never said 9 million per series. TNG had a 9 million budget. Any budget for DS9 or Voyager would automatically be higher due to the seriously increased workload from re-doing the CG.

Is that really a forgone conclusion? DS9 doesn't make the full switch to CGI until season 6. Furthermore, the price would surely depend on the quality of the CGI. It doesn't have to be state of the art if that would be the thing that prevented them from doing it at all. Also wont several aspects of the remastering be cheaper a second time round? They must have streamlined and gotten more efficient with TNG. A nother cost cutting factor is that it will be 3 years down the line from when they started TNG so rendering power will be cheaper. Thus, I think if budgeted wisely they could probably pull something off at a similar price tag if not less.

 

[BriGuy]

The simple fact is that there's no news at the moment. Naturally, there's talk about it - but that's all; there are no plans in place and no project has been greenlit. CBS-D are still entrenched in TNGS6, and will still be in TNG mode for a decent amount of time to come.

Thanks FrontierTrek for not using your proximity to the Trek Remastered projects to play the "shill game" as some others have by exhorting fandom to buy every current HD release to "support" the release of DS9 in HD. You and TrekCore are a credit to the franchise, which you promote through unique and compelling features rather than mindless hype. On a semi-related note, I for one am looking forward to the BOBW screencaps and EAS' incorporating them into its Wolf 359 ship analyses.

Everyone should keep in mind that DS9 -- and VOY, and every Trek series regardless of popularity -- comprise an extremely valuable property for CBS and they must make it available in HD in order to continue to monetize it in the future. How that is done (rather than if it will be done) is the real question, but with the bar set quite high with the TNG-R project I personally doubt we'll get an SD upscale (ala X-Files, Farscape, et al) but it is certainly possible, at least in terms of the CGI VFX in later seasons. DS9 fans should keep their eye on the ball and let CBS know in no uncertain terms that nothing short of a complete HD remastering of the series will be acceptable. Complicating things is that by the time the DS9-R project likely materializes, the reality is that the relevance of packaged media will be significantly diminished (by exactly how much is anyone's guess); Blu-ray will certainly not disappear in that time, but its sales volume will continue to be eroded by streaming services as that technology improves. Even now Netflix is actively de-emphasizing its disc-by-mail service in favor of its streaming offerings; expect much the same thing from Amazon in the years (or even months) to come.

CBS-D certainly has people with the passion to do DS9 in HD right; they just need the go ahead (and the $$$) from CBS corporate to do that.

That's funny about Netflix - just about every time I search it for a movie, I get back "not available for streaming," but available on disc.

While I refuse to pay more for discs-in-the-mail rental, I will and do buy blurays. I don't think streaming can match its quality. And when it comes to movies and shows I like, and will watch again, I want to physically own it and not have to rely on a streaming service that may or may not have it, may or may not work, may or may not be available, that I have to pay for monthly, etc.

If TNG sales are needed to greenlight a DS9 bluray effort - I'd be worried about that. I don't know how the sales have been, but availability has been awful. And while prior seasons got some promotion, with Target offering combo deals with the standalone releases (S3+BoBW, S4+Redemption), I did not see Season 5 get anything like that. Retailers seem to be poo-pooing the TNG bluray releases.

I never had TNG on DVD so am happily and eagerly buying the bluray releases right as they come out. The apparent markdowns on release weeks have been good - season 5 is now about $20 more than I paid for it.

BBC American airs TNG a lot. I watch it in HD, but the episodes clearly aren't HD. I can't watch it after having seen the bluray versions.

I also don't have DS9 on disc at all. I'd like to watch it again - I watched it all as it aired, but it's the series I remember the least, so many would feel like first-viewing again, which would be fun. But I'm not buying DVDs anymore.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If DS9 went all-CGI in the last couple of seasons, then why does the second Defiant still have the original NX-74205 registry? Don't tell me it would have broken the bank to just fix that one thing. How important can "stock footage" still be, in the age of universal CGI?

At least they can, conceivably, fix this in DS9-R.

 

[FrontierTrek]

Didn't I read somewhere that they don't have to redo all the CGI? That a lot of the scenes were still on a back-up owned by one of the old artists of the company who did the CGI?

Or am I misremembering now?

You most likely read that at my article on DS9 HD a while back. Yes, that's true - a lot are. But accounting for everything? That's a tough job. Plus, the stuff they do have - what state is it in? Is it complete? Which elements are missing? How easy are they to recreate? What holds up? What needs to be re-textured?

There are so many unknowns and so many potential problems. It ain't an easy proposition!

Is that really a forgone conclusion? DS9 doesn't make the full switch to CGI until season 6. Furthermore, the price would surely depend on the quality of the CGI. [...]
Also wont several aspects of the remastering be cheaper a second time round? They must have streamlined and gotten more efficient with TNG. A nother cost cutting factor is that it will be 3 years down the line from when they started TNG so rendering power will be cheaper. Thus, I think if budgeted wisely they could probably pull something off at a similar price tag if not less.

Yes, it's a forgone conclusion.

True, they've become so much more streamlined, and the everyday scanning and building of episodes along with compositing and "basic" CG is not a problem. But again, DS9's CG is NOT basic. The problem isn't in creating something at the same difficulty level, the problem is MATCHING the CG that was already done.

Definitely a higher budget. Without any doubts.

If DS9 went all-CGI in the last couple of seasons, then why does the second Defiant still have the original NX-74205 registry? Don't tell me it would have broken the bank to just fix that one thing. How important can "stock footage" still be, in the age of universal CGI?

At least they can, conceivably, fix this in DS9-R.

It didn't go ALL CG. It went 95% CG. They still used physical models, right up to the last episode. Mostly, it's a mish-mash. Again, this makes things very complicated.

 

[FrontierTrek]

^ All of ENT's effects were done in full HD from the get-go. Not 480-anything.

Actually that's incorrect.

Enterprise's FX were rendered at a variety of resolutions, from 480 to 720 to 1080.

 

[FrontierTrek]

Thanks FrontierTrek for not using your proximity to the Trek Remastered projects to play the "shill game" as some others have by exhorting fandom to buy every current HD release to "support" the release of DS9 in HD. You and TrekCore are a credit to the franchise, which you promote through unique and compelling features rather than mindless hype. On a semi-related note, I for one am looking forward to the BOBW screencaps and EAS' incorporating them into its Wolf 359 ship analyses.

I appreciate the comments, Joe. The "shill game" may work short term, but I tend to think that if I just say everything's "wonderful" when it clearly isn't, then any journalistic integrity quickly evaporates. Hence the reason you won't see us copy/pasting press releases on Star Trek dog accessories, shower curtains or wine glasses!!

The whole concept with TrekCore is to *avoid* the mindless hype. I got so sick of reading copy/paste press releases on the big fan sites - I'd much rather go the extra mile to cover something properly, and produce an article which I - as a fan - would enjoy reading.

Yes! BOBW screencaps will be coming soon, along with the companion article from our partners at EAS.

Everyone should keep in mind that DS9 -- and VOY, and every Trek series regardless of popularity -- comprise an extremely valuable property for CBS and they must make it available in HD in order to continue to monetize it in the future. How that is done (rather than if it will be done) is the real question, but with the bar set quite high with the TNG-R project I personally doubt we'll get an SD upscale (ala X-Files, Farscape, et al) but it is certainly possible, at least in terms of the CGI VFX in later seasons. (...)

Yep. Star Trek is CBS's tentpole property. Of course they want it in HD, they'd be crazy not to. It will get there - the question is just when and how.

CBS-D certainly has people with the passion to do DS9 in HD right; they just need the go ahead (and the $$$) from CBS corporate to do that.

Absolutely. The team there is incredible, and beyond that - a genuinely nice group of people to be around. They care about the fans, they want to do the best they can, and they don't stop until they get as close to "perfect" as they're allowed to with the constraints of time and money.

 

[Jefferies]

The whole concept with TrekCore is to *avoid* the mindless hype. I got so sick of reading copy/paste press releases on the big fan sites - I'd much rather go the extra mile to cover something properly, and produce an article which I - as a fan - would enjoy reading.

I'm really greatful for all you insightful comments to our questions Frontier! These days it seems like you are the only one who manages to draw out any real new information about the ongoing development of the franchise. All your work and effort is a real gift for all the rest of us!

 

[Jefferies]

Absolutely. The team there is incredible, and beyond that - a genuinely nice group of people to be around. They care about the fans, they want to do the best they can, and they don't stop until they get as close to "perfect" as they're allowed to with the constraints of time and money.

I really hope then they will make DS9 and Voyager happen before this team and all their Star Trek remastering specific expertise splits up and everyone moves on to other projects. We saw how things go wrong when the work is left to other people with TNG season 2 and to some extent 4 as well.

 

[TemporalFlux]

TNG seemed to be rolled into the big 25th Anniversary hoopla. DS9 has a 25th coming up in 2018; so they could have that in the back of their head.

 

[Joe_Atari]

The "shill game" may work short term, but I tend to think that if I just say everything's "wonderful" when it clearly isn't, then any journalistic integrity quickly evaporates.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is the kind thing I'm referring to specifically:

Michael Okuda: Buy TNG Blu-ray sets to get DS9 on Blu-ray!

Michael Okuda: Visual FX in TNG yr 2 by HTV are excellent, very faithful to original, with a hint of extra polish thx to topnotch team. Watch Blus and see.

Not to single out MO, but that second statement in particular coming as blatant damage control when the dodgy TNG S2 preview screencaps began to come in cost him a lot of credibility in by eyes. The Okudas certainly add a lot to the VAM of these releases (I particularly enjoy their text commentaries), but their role as paid spokespeople leaves a bad taste. Again, pointing out the quality VAM is one thing, but blindly covering up for slipshod remastering work is quite another. I can't believe the Okudas ever sat in a screening room with those S2 transfers -- either that or they figured Trek fans will buy anything regardless of quality.

 

[dg1379]

I'm not sure if what this guy says is true about the file he acquired (or if he just created it himself) but this scene looks awesome in HD. I'd get the BD if this is the quality we are looking at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-a0I-XA7Q

 

[trekker670]

I'm not sure if what this guy says is true about the file he acquired (or if he just created it himself) but this scene looks awesome in HD. I'd get the BD if this is the quality we are looking at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-a0I-XA7Q

This video has come up before, but where do you see any claims that he acquired the file from an official source?

 

[dg1379]

I'm not sure if what this guy says is true about the file he acquired (or if he just created it himself) but this scene looks awesome in HD. I'd get the BD if this is the quality we are looking at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-a0I-XA7Q

This video has come up before, but where do you see any claims that he acquired the file from an official source?

I saw it in one of the comments. That's where I got it from so that's why I wasn't sure.

 

[SpHeRe31459]

I'm not sure if what this guy says is true about the file he acquired (or if he just created it himself) but this scene looks awesome in HD. I'd get the BD if this is the quality we are looking at.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw-a0I-XA7Q

This video has come up before, but where do you see any claims that he acquired the file from an official source?

I saw it in one of the comments. That's where I got it from so that's why I wasn't sure.

I see this random comment that must be what you saw. I'm pretty sure it's an incomplete thought...

One of the DS9 cgi artists re-rendered a clip from the dominion war in HD and it's incredible

That's either saying he thought it looked official or the commenter is kind of incoherently rambling and is referring to the sample 1080p renders that TrekCore posted from Rob Bonchune. That comment was posted 10-days after TrekCore's article went up.


EDIT: In fact that very video is in the comments to TrekCore's article.
http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/05/deep-space-nine-in-high-definition-one-step-closer/

According to further comments it says the person does indeed have access to the original files.

That's because these are the original DS9 CG scenes that IRML has, but IRML spices up everything he works on...

His second re-render is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJs0-hhOZFQ

Still would like to see that claim substantiated somehow... It seems like maybe he's in contact with Adam "Mojo" Lebowitz.

Dave Clark is IRML's real world name, not a name I see in relation to Foundation Imaging.