Spoilers Canon, Continuity, and Pike's Accident

[Nyotarules]

I gotta re-watch the episode tonight. I could swear there was something in there pointing to Kirk being the answer, but it sounds like I may be in the wrong.

No, you are right, Pike thought Kirk was a hothead and his methods would lead to war, but learned that he was the issue and that his methods led to war and Spock's death. Old Pike told him everytime he avoided his fate, Spock died.

 

[fireproof78]

I gotta re-watch the episode tonight. I could swear there was something in there pointing to Kirk being the answer, but it sounds like I may be in the wrong.

I might be wrong too.

 

[HotRod]

So I just rewatched the episode in full and I do think I'm right in thinking Pike knows it should be Kirk in command of the Enterprise.

Pike makes mention of how a different Captain would have made a different decision.

He immediately learns as much about Kirk as he can from Sam.

There's various poignant discussions with and about Kirk and how different his approach would be to the situation.

The Romulans flat out telling Pike how his methods would be seen as weakness, as opposed to Kirk's.

Pike makes mention of how he's convinced he was supposed to meet Kirk and how he would specifically make a great Captain of the Enterprise, followed by him near immediately looking up Kirk after his return to his timeline.

Pike knows, or atleast believes, that Kirk should be Captain of the Enterprise.

 

[Serveaux]

Pike makes mention of how a different Captain would have made a different decision.

Like Una, maybe.

He immediately learns as much about Kirk as he can from Sam.

Because he has a very specific and explicit concern: is Kirk impulsive enough to start a shooting war.

And yet I remain concerned this brash, young Starfleet captain follows his own rules. I can't help but wonder, is Kirk the reason I was sent here? If I wasn't here to stop him, would we be lead into a war?

There's various poignant discussions with and about Kirk and how different his approach would be to the situation.

There's one, actually, in which Kirk is startlingly smug about Pike's error: "Did it ever occur to you that sometimes you can't avoid a fight? If you had just chased that Romulan ship from the get-go and taken it out, maybe none of this would've happened."

("Did it ever occur to you?" WTF, Pike's got shipmates dying in Sickbay. Kirk's being a callow prick.)

The Romulans flat out telling Pike how his methods would be seen as weakness, as opposed to Kirk's.

In our culture, your words are a show of weakness.

Just seen as weak, not "as opposed to Kirk." Kirk's not a factor in the Romulan commander's evaluation.

Pike makes mention of how he's convinced he was supposed to meet Kirk and how he would specifically make a great Captain of the Enterprise, followed by him near immediately looking up Kirk after his return to his timeline.

Pike knows, or a tleast believes, that Kirk should be Captain of the Enterprise.

I don't think I can explain it, but... I think I was supposed to meet you...Enterprise would be lucky to have you.

Okay.

We know that Pike knows that it has to be Kirk who takes over the Enterprise. Perhaps he confided this information to her and she willingly accepts that she cannot have the Enterprise. She trust Pike explicitly and would trust him on this.

This is your original context, which is what I was addressing. Pike does not "know that it has to be Kirk," and certainly there's no strong reason to think that he'd discourage Una from seeking command on the kid's behalf. If they hand off from Pike to Kirk, it's unlikely to be a situation where Kirk is picked ahead of Una by Pike.

 

[HotRod]

Like Una, maybe.



Because he has a very specific and explicit concern: is Kirk impulsive enough to start a shooting war.

And yet I remain concerned this brash, young Starfleet captain follows his own rules. I can't help but wonder, is Kirk the reason I was sent here? If I wasn't here to stop him, would we be lead into a war?


There's one, actually, in which Kirk is startlingly smug about Pike's error: "Did it ever occur to you that sometimes you can't avoid a fight? If you had just chased that Romulan ship from the get-go and taken it out, maybe none of this would've happened."

("Did it ever occur to you?" WTF, Pike's got shipmates dying in Sickbay. Kirk's being a callow prick.)



In our culture, your words are a show of weakness.

Just seen as weak, not "as opposed to Kirk." Kirk's not a factor in the Romulan commander's evaluation.



I don't think I can explain it, but... I think I was supposed to meet you...Enterprise would be lucky to have you.

Okay.



This is your original context, which is what I was addressing. Pike does not "know that it has to be Kirk," and certainly there's no strong reason to think that he'd discourage Una from seeking command on the kid's behalf. If they hand off from Pike to Kirk, it's unlikely to be a situation where Kirk is picked ahead of Una by Pike.

I'm just trying to explain, more or less to myself, a reasonable reason for Una to seemingly not be involved in the conversation on who succeeds Pike as Captain. Her trusting Pike's judgment on the matter, assuming he atleast has a genuine belief that it should be Kirk, is one way for her to be somewhat respectfully written out of the equation.

Spock - "All we can surmise is that, in the prime future, some other captain of the Enterprise must have commanded it differently."

This quote near the beginning of the episode, followed by this quote near the end...

Pike - "I don't think I can explain it, but... I think I was supposed to meet you."

Followed by....

Pike - "You're a good captain, Jim Kirk. Enterprise would be lucky to have you.

It's the emphasis on captain that has me believing that Pike has come to the conclusion that it's Kirk who is destined to captain the Enterprise.

But that's me. It's all definitely open to interpretation.

 

[Danja]

If they hand off from Pike to Kirk, it's unlikely to be a situation where Kirk is picked ahead of Una by Pike.

Kirk could just be a nostalgic memberberry ("Oh, look ... Here's a young James T. Kirk!").

 

[Lord Garth]

There will be some sort of reason why Una isn't Captain of the Enterprise and it'll be a better reason than "Pike just chose Kirk instead because it's his destiny!"

Kirk will do something that stands out that will make Pike or April or whoever think Kirk's the one to be Captain of the Enterprise, if Una can't be or doesn't want to be (for whatever separate reason that is).

 

[Nerys Myk]

There will be some sort of reason why Una isn't Captain of the Enterprise and it'll be a better reason than "Pike just chose Kirk instead because it's his destiny!"

Kirk will do something that stands out that will make Pike or April or whoever think Kirk's the one to be Captain of the Enterprise, if Una can't be or doesn't want to be (for whatever separate reason that is).

While Pike can make recommendations, I doubt he's the one to make that decision.

 

[Lord Garth]

While Pike can make recommendations, I doubt he's the one to make that decision.

I agree.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think Pike arriving on Talos IV was the end of his story in TOS... but not the end of his story in SNW.

Agreed. I don't think the makers of SNW will be able to resist adding to the end of Pike's story.

So, I highly recommend [Better Call Saul]. I actually like it better than Breaking Bad.

Seconded. BCS is the best prequel ever, IMO, and it has a wider variety of stories than Breaking Bad. (My perception might be skewed because I marathoned BB over weeks/months and I watched BCS in real time over the course of years, but I don't think so.)

 

[scotthm]

So, what say you?

I just watched this episode for the first time today, and the conclusion i've come to is the Pike is an idiot. He could save the cadets by warning them of the upcoming disaster, and avoid the war by making himself not the captain of the Enterprise during the Romulan encounter. This possibility wasn't even mentioned.

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[Tuskin38]

I just watched this episode for the first time today, and the conclusion i've come to is the Pike is an idiot. He could save the cadets by warning them of the upcoming disaster, and avoid the war by making himself not the captain of the Enterprise during the Romulan encounter. This possibility wasn't even mentioned.

The episode explained why that wouldn't work.

Future Pike said he saw many possible timelines where he warned the cadets, or he avoided the accident, and all of them ended with Spock dying.

Every time he tried to avoid his destiny it ends in disaster.

 

[scotthm]

The episode explained why that wouldn't work.
Future Pike said he saw many possible timelines where he warned the cadets, or he avoided the accident, and all of them ended with Spock dying.

I saw a timeline where Pike saved the cadets and became disabled and Spock still died.
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[Lord Garth]

Pike needs spoilers for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

 

[Noname Given]

Pike needs spoilers for Star Trek III: The Search for Spock.

He also need spoilers for TOS S3 Spock's Brain.

The problem is that any change Christopher Pike makes to the timeline ends up causing the irrevocable death of Mr. Spock.

In every other situation where Spock dies, he's restored to Life by some mechanism to ultimately do the things needed to create the timeline we all know and love.

 

[Serveaux]

I just watched this episode for the first time today, and the conclusion i've come to is the Pike is an idiot. He could save the cadets by warning them of the upcoming disaster, and avoid the war by making himself not the captain of the Enterprise during the Romulan encounter. This possibility wasn't even mentioned.

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You misunderstood the plot. He wasn't in the process of working it out on his own; that was interrupted by the appearance of Future Pike. He experienced one version of the future and In the end he chose to believe his older self, who flatly told him that he'd seen the other scenarios and all ended with Spock's death.

That was the actual story you watched, right there on screen.

 

[scotthm]

You misunderstood the plot. He wasn't in the process of working it out on his own; that was interrupted by the appearance of Future Pike. He experienced one version of the future and In the end he chose to believe his older self, who flatly told him that he'd seen the other scenarios and all ended with Spock's death.

That was the actual story you watched, right there on screed.

Yes, thank you. The plot was obvious. The idea that any change to Pike's timeline results in Spock's untimely death sounds ridiculous. There was a lot I liked about season one, but overall it gave me the impression of bad fan fiction.
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[Tuskin38]

I saw a timeline where Pike saved the cadets and became disabled and Spock still died.

Yes, but future Pike said he saw many others that we didn't.

Yes, thank you. The plot was obvious. The idea that any change to Pike's timeline results in Spock's untimely death sounds ridiculous. There was a lot I liked about season one, but overall it gave me the impression of bad fan fiction.

You can blame Discovery Season 2 for this. It was said once he saw the future it would be set in stone, it can't be changed.

 

[Lord Garth]

You can blame Discovery Season 2 for this. It was said once he saw the future it would be set in stone, it can't be changed.

SNW doesn't strike me as the type of series that would stick to something if they didn't think it would work for them. They would've come up with something if they didn't want to go down that path themselves. They want to end up where TOS is, even if it doesn't look exactly the same. So, when it gets down to it, we can really blame what "The Menagerie" has preordained.

 

[UssGlenn]

You can blame Discovery Season 2 for this. It was said once he saw the future it would be set in stone, it can't be changed.

Well, we've seen he can change it, but the the important thing is that in the end he always chooses to put it back, so his fate does not change, just as the monks told him.