Are the majority of male fans of TOS chauvinists?
- Thread starter RAMA
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Um.. the episode was named "Court Martial"
And, other than the good-bye kiss at the end, she wasn't at all portrayed sexually. (Though she does, sadly, suffer from Hollywood lawyerin' skills).
Though, after reading Rama's posts and follow-ups.. does really kinda seem like this was trolling? But, to take the point, in TOS there are lots of women in professional settings that were NOT there JUST as eye-candy (and, of course, a few there were)...
In TNG there's an obsession with making Troi the ultimate victim, deliberately shown as a sex object many times, shown to be incompetant as a bridge officer, exists primarily as a love interest, and her heritage CENTERS around her sexuality and nudity.
In DS9, though, we get a gamut of prostitutes, 'mirror sex-act' episodes, a very bad lesbian kiss, and entire episodes devoted to Odo and Kira, etc...
In in VOY we get 7-of-9 and her catsuit and SEVERAL episodes devoted to her 'recurring emotional sexuality'.. of course, we also get Kess and her 'worthless except for plot-device' episodes, etc..
And don't get me STARTED on T'Pau.
If anything, TOS is the least sexist of the series, aside from maybe TAS.
And the author is real hottie! Yowza!
(I'm not kidding--I saw her on Colbert and she's gorgeous. Tres ironique, non?)
I was thinking of mentioning that book but I wanted to keep my post short and sweet. You are correct, of course: this is all part of the culture. But culture is shaped by those in it. When women choose to lionize women whose sexuality is their only voice and gravitate toward men who fetishize their disrespect for them... well, I'm not taking any blame for what happens. If we truly believe in equality, then we must respect women's agency in these things.
I'm no fan of Pink but she makes a good point in "Stupid Girls."
Firstly, in regards to the New Trek is better than Old Trek..
I happen to like TOS better..there was a sense of Exploration and Adventure that I found lacking in the later "generations" of Trek shows..one of the reasons why I was so disappointed in Enterprise,was the lack of "Adventure" that I was expecting from a "back to basics" Trek..anyway, just my personal preference..
Secondly, I LOVE the Human female form, to me, it's the most beautiful sight I will ever witness..but I am also aware that women are PEOPLE with their own hopes, dreams, and motivations. I have never stood for demeaning behavior towards them and have always tried to treat them as equals, because I judge everyone as individuals.. yet, that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a beautiful lady..I just will show my appreciation in a civilized manner. So I don't consider myself sexist..
Thirdly, the fastest rising form of prejudice is ageism, so lets not make assumptions based on supposed ages of fans of each "generation" of trek.. It's just not "Trek-like" :thumbsup:
I happen to like TOS better..there was a sense of Exploration and Adventure that I found lacking in the later "generations" of Trek shows..one of the reasons why I was so disappointed in Enterprise,was the lack of "Adventure" that I was expecting from a "back to basics" Trek..anyway, just my personal preference..
Secondly, I LOVE the Human female form, to me, it's the most beautiful sight I will ever witness..but I am also aware that women are PEOPLE with their own hopes, dreams, and motivations. I have never stood for demeaning behavior towards them and have always tried to treat them as equals, because I judge everyone as individuals.. yet, that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate a beautiful lady..I just will show my appreciation in a civilized manner. So I don't consider myself sexist..
Thirdly, the fastest rising form of prejudice is ageism, so lets not make assumptions based on supposed ages of fans of each "generation" of trek.. It's just not "Trek-like" :thumbsup:
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Gah. Well, I'm officially designating Rama a troll. The things he's sprouting are so devoid of any logic, if he isn't a troll, he's a retard.
Let's commnet on another thing: the guy who had a steamy relationship with Troi while negotiating the rights to a seemingly stable wormhole, was most certainly not using her to get the wormhole. He just wanted her vagina on the side, and got it, and Troi happily obliges because she got his penis. The entire scene in the gym with Crusher shows that quite nicely: have fun. It's more that she used what he said to screw him over in her idea of moral perfection.
That said, let us examine a few things:
Enjoying the female form, whatever gender you are, does not make you a chauvenist, or sexist. It makes you human with a healthy sexuality or healthy sense of estethics.
Wanting a subservient partner, whatever gender you are, and whatever gender that partner is, does not automatically make you a sexist or similar. It makes you sexually a dom(inant), and if you like being on the opposite side of a dominant, it makes you sub(servient). You only are a sexist if you think that your particular tastes in a relationship in that area should be the way everyone has a relationship, and if some don't want to, not important, they should do so anyway, forcibly if necessary. One can be a dominant who wants his own personal subservient and still believe 100% that men and women are equal. You are not a hypocrite, neither are you stating something PC while you privately believe something else; it means you have a sexuality and you recognise that what is right for you and your partner is not right for everyone; you recognize that everyone is different and everyone should just figure out on their own what they want and enjoy, and should have the freedom to choose WHATEVER that is, including the RIGTH to CHOOSE to be a subservient to a dominat out of their own FREE WILL. It is not evil, bad, being brainwashed, or anything else that makes the sub look like some kind of victim of the evil dom, and a betrayer of whatever gender that's been seeking equality.
Now we get to the crux of the problem, it's combination of three factors:
The first, is mistaken equating 'equal', with 'the same'. Equal just means on the same level, not that there aren't differences.
The first is the western (Christian/Islamic) view of sexuality: a sin, dirty, evil. Anyone expressing any kind of healthy sexuality must automatically be some kind of deviant and pervert, and so very evil. Oh, sure, the last few decades things have improved, but in America that undercurrent still exists, and it's an insidious one.
The second is feminism; or rather what feminism has degenerated into. I am not a feminist, I proclaim proudly. I'm what I'd like to call on the gender matter an 'equalist' (like mentioned above), and in a broader sense a (secular) humanist. I don't care about religion, gender, skin, sexuality, whatever; we're all made equal but different, and I judge by the individual. Feminism originally meant that men and women are equal and should have equal rights and rewards, and although that's still the obvious face feminism likes to portray to the outside world, but you when you peel away that face, and look little closer to what's said beside that obvious face that's kept to keep it's legitimacy, you get something very different, something insidious, something rotten at the core, and rotten view, you'd recognize, because a few fringe studies have pretty much said it: the rotten core, is not that women are equal, but that they are superior. They are more spiritual, they are more cooperative, they are less combatative, all the problems in the world come from men, and if only they were in charge, we'd be living in paradise; and of course, par the christian view that sex and carnality is bad, women do not want fucking, no, sex is only the physical expression and enhancement of spiritual love, and/or procreation.
Bullshit... of course, because then the girls went wild. They should have expected it; men have been free to express their sexuality, now that women are free to do the same, it would only be a matter of time before girls were born and taugth not to be afraid to do the same, but that was something feminists never envisioned; after all, women are better, they are not carnal, sex is only spiritual love, all women are equal and thus the same (which is where we get the first one mixed into the mess.)
Teenage girls though systematically destroy each other, to the point of driving others into suicide (there goes the non-combatitive and working togehter), and they express their sexuality far more freely in a free world. Don't think that the teenage destruction is gone from the sweet feminist adult world, oh no, not at all, they just take it to the next level and less obvious both toward other women and to men, girls are told that men are rapists when they get to college and should be wary of the evil sexual carnal desires of men, and the girls who are free and allow themselves to be are sluts, bitches, cute, secretely still oppressed by male sexuality, and oh yeah, "female chauvanist pigs." And that is really just the beginning. A female cop once caught a woman lying about being raped, to the feminists the cop is wrong and just a brainwashed slave to patriarchy, because of course, women are better than men, and would never lie about something as aweful as rape and how that effects women when they go into a court.
Men who like sex and women are not "evil chauvanist, sexist pigs", and women who like sex and men are not "female, evil chauvanist pigs." They're just human with a healthy sexuality and are free to express it. And don't think women don't like to check out a man's ass, and say some crude comments either; go look through the Enterprise thread back to Connor Trinneer and others picture threads. And I'm a Highlander fan, I frequent Highlander boards; and the female to male ration being much higher, I've seen some things. 36 threads and counting of nothing but pictures of the Highlander males, with comments that make the average male commenting about hot women look like saints.
Human beings like sex, they like to fuck, and the different range in appetites and fetishes when it comes to that are varied beyond most peoples' imaginations, and none of them are evil, deviant, sick, sluts, evil bastards, sexist, and the like.
Thank you for reading the speech.
Let's commnet on another thing: the guy who had a steamy relationship with Troi while negotiating the rights to a seemingly stable wormhole, was most certainly not using her to get the wormhole. He just wanted her vagina on the side, and got it, and Troi happily obliges because she got his penis. The entire scene in the gym with Crusher shows that quite nicely: have fun. It's more that she used what he said to screw him over in her idea of moral perfection.
That said, let us examine a few things:
Enjoying the female form, whatever gender you are, does not make you a chauvenist, or sexist. It makes you human with a healthy sexuality or healthy sense of estethics.
Wanting a subservient partner, whatever gender you are, and whatever gender that partner is, does not automatically make you a sexist or similar. It makes you sexually a dom(inant), and if you like being on the opposite side of a dominant, it makes you sub(servient). You only are a sexist if you think that your particular tastes in a relationship in that area should be the way everyone has a relationship, and if some don't want to, not important, they should do so anyway, forcibly if necessary. One can be a dominant who wants his own personal subservient and still believe 100% that men and women are equal. You are not a hypocrite, neither are you stating something PC while you privately believe something else; it means you have a sexuality and you recognise that what is right for you and your partner is not right for everyone; you recognize that everyone is different and everyone should just figure out on their own what they want and enjoy, and should have the freedom to choose WHATEVER that is, including the RIGTH to CHOOSE to be a subservient to a dominat out of their own FREE WILL. It is not evil, bad, being brainwashed, or anything else that makes the sub look like some kind of victim of the evil dom, and a betrayer of whatever gender that's been seeking equality.
Now we get to the crux of the problem, it's combination of three factors:
The first, is mistaken equating 'equal', with 'the same'. Equal just means on the same level, not that there aren't differences.
The first is the western (Christian/Islamic) view of sexuality: a sin, dirty, evil. Anyone expressing any kind of healthy sexuality must automatically be some kind of deviant and pervert, and so very evil. Oh, sure, the last few decades things have improved, but in America that undercurrent still exists, and it's an insidious one.
The second is feminism; or rather what feminism has degenerated into. I am not a feminist, I proclaim proudly. I'm what I'd like to call on the gender matter an 'equalist' (like mentioned above), and in a broader sense a (secular) humanist. I don't care about religion, gender, skin, sexuality, whatever; we're all made equal but different, and I judge by the individual. Feminism originally meant that men and women are equal and should have equal rights and rewards, and although that's still the obvious face feminism likes to portray to the outside world, but you when you peel away that face, and look little closer to what's said beside that obvious face that's kept to keep it's legitimacy, you get something very different, something insidious, something rotten at the core, and rotten view, you'd recognize, because a few fringe studies have pretty much said it: the rotten core, is not that women are equal, but that they are superior. They are more spiritual, they are more cooperative, they are less combatative, all the problems in the world come from men, and if only they were in charge, we'd be living in paradise; and of course, par the christian view that sex and carnality is bad, women do not want fucking, no, sex is only the physical expression and enhancement of spiritual love, and/or procreation.
Bullshit... of course, because then the girls went wild. They should have expected it; men have been free to express their sexuality, now that women are free to do the same, it would only be a matter of time before girls were born and taugth not to be afraid to do the same, but that was something feminists never envisioned; after all, women are better, they are not carnal, sex is only spiritual love, all women are equal and thus the same (which is where we get the first one mixed into the mess.)
Teenage girls though systematically destroy each other, to the point of driving others into suicide (there goes the non-combatitive and working togehter), and they express their sexuality far more freely in a free world. Don't think that the teenage destruction is gone from the sweet feminist adult world, oh no, not at all, they just take it to the next level and less obvious both toward other women and to men, girls are told that men are rapists when they get to college and should be wary of the evil sexual carnal desires of men, and the girls who are free and allow themselves to be are sluts, bitches, cute, secretely still oppressed by male sexuality, and oh yeah, "female chauvanist pigs." And that is really just the beginning. A female cop once caught a woman lying about being raped, to the feminists the cop is wrong and just a brainwashed slave to patriarchy, because of course, women are better than men, and would never lie about something as aweful as rape and how that effects women when they go into a court.
Men who like sex and women are not "evil chauvanist, sexist pigs", and women who like sex and men are not "female, evil chauvanist pigs." They're just human with a healthy sexuality and are free to express it. And don't think women don't like to check out a man's ass, and say some crude comments either; go look through the Enterprise thread back to Connor Trinneer and others picture threads. And I'm a Highlander fan, I frequent Highlander boards; and the female to male ration being much higher, I've seen some things. 36 threads and counting of nothing but pictures of the Highlander males, with comments that make the average male commenting about hot women look like saints.
Human beings like sex, they like to fuck, and the different range in appetites and fetishes when it comes to that are varied beyond most peoples' imaginations, and none of them are evil, deviant, sick, sluts, evil bastards, sexist, and the like.
Thank you for reading the speech.
Watch it, Sugar Tits! Fifty years ago, you'd be hanging upside down from a tree with a fork up your ass!
No, wait, wrong bigot...
No, wait, wrong bigot...
L
Lord Garth
Guest
I originally wouldn't have said that RAMA was trolling but after reading these comments...
... I have to agree with 3D Master and Vance. He's trolling, at this point at the very least.
goldbug is also right. His attitude displayed above is very un-Trek like and particularly un-TNG like.
Saying that preferring one show over another makes someone subnormal and unfit to interact with others doesn't reflect very well on him at all.
To quote Picard: "No, this is the same old story. Self-righteous beings willing prosecute and judge anything they don't understand or can't tolerate." That's directly from "Enounter at Farpoint", straight from Gene Roddenberry.
Overall I think a lot of what TNG was said was more hopeful than reasoned but not this. In here, with that quote, Gene was right, and it would be nice if some actually listened to the points Star Trek is trying to make. Or, to use another Picard quote, this time from "Up the Long Ladder": "It's the differences that make us strong."
Some of us prefer TOS, some of us prefer TNG, but so what? In the end we're all people, we all post on the same board, and we should co-exist instead of fighting each other. Make the effort to get along. And it's not a one-way street, RAMA, you should too.
RAMA said:
that's why we have the TOS board...to keep those people from infecting the rest of the normal people.
... I have to agree with 3D Master and Vance. He's trolling, at this point at the very least.
goldbug is also right. His attitude displayed above is very un-Trek like and particularly un-TNG like.
Saying that preferring one show over another makes someone subnormal and unfit to interact with others doesn't reflect very well on him at all.
To quote Picard: "No, this is the same old story. Self-righteous beings willing prosecute and judge anything they don't understand or can't tolerate." That's directly from "Enounter at Farpoint", straight from Gene Roddenberry.
Overall I think a lot of what TNG was said was more hopeful than reasoned but not this. In here, with that quote, Gene was right, and it would be nice if some actually listened to the points Star Trek is trying to make. Or, to use another Picard quote, this time from "Up the Long Ladder": "It's the differences that make us strong."
Some of us prefer TOS, some of us prefer TNG, but so what? In the end we're all people, we all post on the same board, and we should co-exist instead of fighting each other. Make the effort to get along. And it's not a one-way street, RAMA, you should too.
Funny thing is, troll or not (and this thread was quickly revealed by the OP himself as a bullshit trojan horse to mock TOS purists--of which I'm not one, btw, being rather fond of DS9), those of us who have chosen to engage with the stated intent have managed to say a few things worthy of note.
Silk purse from a sow's ass, I guess...
Silk purse from a sow's ass, I guess...
I have to wonder about the intent of this thread myself, given some of the comments made by RAMA. However, that is no reason to insult him in return.
My advice is, anyone who feels disgruntled about this thread should wait for the TOS mods to come by and have a look. I'm going to lock this in the meantime.
My advice is, anyone who feels disgruntled about this thread should wait for the TOS mods to come by and have a look. I'm going to lock this in the meantime.
This turned ugly quickly. How very unfortunate. And a thanks to Kalen Archer for shutting it til I got online. See, I do have a life! I'm not here 24/7. 
From what I saw, there were several behaviors that need to stop in this forum:
- double/triple posting. People, I know this is minor, but
unless you're a n00b who hasn't yet read the rules (and why
haven't you?), you shouldn't be doing this. Use the quote function.
- Getting personal. No, no and no. The quickest way to derail a discussion and get into flaming/trolling is to get personal. Discussion, not poster.
-Responding to something you find offensive. No insults or
insulting type graphics. If you find something offensive and
don't wish to debate it or think it needs mod action, then
please message the mods. While I'm normally a lazy slacker with PMs and emails, I do respond to things when they really need attention (such as this, I was hit with it when I first logged on today.) DON'T "punish" the offender. That just escalates things.
To Rama. I really mulled over what you said about fans who
prefer TOS (or Star Trek to the real purists). I've had
complaints that it was deliberate trolling. I think, instead, that is was frustration, but poorly expressed. To come into the TOS forum and mock the TOS fans, that's rather like going into a bullring and waving a red flag in front of a bull. I really don't think that you were looking to piss off TOS fans, but I would suggest in future that you don't make blanket insulting statements. There are ways to express one's displeasure with some behaviors without being insulting, and, if truth be told, making a sweeping generalization that may or may not be true.
To everyone, again, let's be decent to one another. It's OK to agree, to hold different opinions. Let's discuss amicably
without resorting to behaviors. I am not warning in this thread, although technically I see several things which I could, if hardass, warn. I prefer that people take their own initiative to post decently, without having to be smacked around. However, don't mistake my leniency for weakness in this, if reason fails, I will in future warn.
If you wish to discuss anything about this, by all means PM me. I promise to answer in a reasonable amount of time.
I am reopening this, trusting that we can discuss what is a bit of a controversial subject maturely.
From what I saw, there were several behaviors that need to stop in this forum:
- double/triple posting. People, I know this is minor, but
unless you're a n00b who hasn't yet read the rules (and why
haven't you?), you shouldn't be doing this. Use the quote function.
- Getting personal. No, no and no. The quickest way to derail a discussion and get into flaming/trolling is to get personal. Discussion, not poster.
-Responding to something you find offensive. No insults or
insulting type graphics. If you find something offensive and
don't wish to debate it or think it needs mod action, then
please message the mods. While I'm normally a lazy slacker with PMs and emails, I do respond to things when they really need attention (such as this, I was hit with it when I first logged on today.) DON'T "punish" the offender. That just escalates things.
To Rama. I really mulled over what you said about fans who
prefer TOS (or Star Trek to the real purists). I've had
complaints that it was deliberate trolling. I think, instead, that is was frustration, but poorly expressed. To come into the TOS forum and mock the TOS fans, that's rather like going into a bullring and waving a red flag in front of a bull. I really don't think that you were looking to piss off TOS fans, but I would suggest in future that you don't make blanket insulting statements. There are ways to express one's displeasure with some behaviors without being insulting, and, if truth be told, making a sweeping generalization that may or may not be true.
To everyone, again, let's be decent to one another. It's OK to agree, to hold different opinions. Let's discuss amicably
without resorting to behaviors. I am not warning in this thread, although technically I see several things which I could, if hardass, warn. I prefer that people take their own initiative to post decently, without having to be smacked around. However, don't mistake my leniency for weakness in this, if reason fails, I will in future warn.
If you wish to discuss anything about this, by all means PM me. I promise to answer in a reasonable amount of time.
I am reopening this, trusting that we can discuss what is a bit of a controversial subject maturely.
Good points. It's useful to remember that a dick-waving competition among "Star Trek" fans is never a big deal.
wow, I"m gone for 2 days and this thread has 3 pages...impressive....I"m at work so I have to work....can't read every post here, but I guess more than likely I agree with most of the men here. I am single, 32 years old, no children, but 4 dgos...I work and support myself and consider myself very indpendent but let me say....if some man wants to appreciate my form....I'm all for it....chauvinist or not! LOL
let me correct myself.
After coming to work this morning and being greeted by a fellow male co-worker who seemed to deem it appropriate timing to make a comment about my chest....I am reconsidered my stand......chauvinism is not contained to the 60's 70's or even before that, it's in their genes! LOL they can't help it....I do appreciate the appreciation of my form...but wisdom in selecting a time to display this is always beneficial as well.....EEK!
After coming to work this morning and being greeted by a fellow male co-worker who seemed to deem it appropriate timing to make a comment about my chest....I am reconsidered my stand......chauvinism is not contained to the 60's 70's or even before that, it's in their genes! LOL they can't help it....I do appreciate the appreciation of my form...but wisdom in selecting a time to display this is always beneficial as well.....EEK!
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