Are the majority of male fans of TOS chauvinists?
- Thread starter RAMA
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Ensign Khan said:
I feel compelled to point out that TOS was produced in the late 60's when women were more or less portrayed this way in just about every TV show and film. I don't like the way women were portayed either, but it was a sign of the times.
If it makes you feel any better, I am running a TOS-era Star Trek RPG where the captain is a woman and in command of a Connie. And she wears pants, no skirts on this ship
^^
Well, to have her be independent...why not have her wear both...?
I surely wouldn't want to be told whether or not I am a 'woman' (liberated or not) by wearing a skirt or pants. Not too mention, if I were Captain, I would like a choice in my wardrobe.
Something else that would have been interesting with Janeway....I think.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Hoshi_Mayweather said:
Ensign Khan said:
I feel compelled to point out that TOS was produced in the late 60's when women were more or less portrayed this way in just about every TV show and film. I don't like the way women were portayed either, but it was a sign of the times.
If it makes you feel any better, I am running a TOS-era Star Trek RPG where the captain is a woman and in command of a Connie. And she wears pants, no skirts on this ship
^^
Well, to have her be independent...why do have her wear both...?
I surely wouldn't want to be told whether or not I am a 'woman' (liberated or not) by wearing a skirt or pants. Not too mention, if I were Captain, I would like a choice in my wardrobe.
Something else that would have been interesting with Janeway....I think.
They can choose to where either, not both at the same time. In both TNG and TOS eras when there was a skirt variant of the uniform, we've seen women wear skirts and pants (in TOS only in the background, not counting the Cage (when there weren't skirts)) and in TNG era even men the kilt variant.
And yes, seeing the Voyager women wear a skirt the times they felt like it, would be interesting... interesting indeed. But alas... skirts seem to have vanished from Federation fashion after the fashion horror of the TNG "skants". Probably a backlash: "AAAH! That fashion designer should be shot! No more skirts for the rest of the century so as not to remind us. AAAH!!"
To be replaced with... catsuits.
Highly unlikey, it takes our technological level, our increase in knowledge on an exponential scale our develpment psychologically, and tens of thousands of years to get to the point where women were able break through the male centered, religion backed society. Once they get to a certain level, there is no psychological chance of ever going back.
RAMA
I never said that not liking the new trek was what defined chauvinism. Someone else brought that up in his shortsightedness, not me. They took a cheap shot a latter Treks and I defended them..its a seperate issue to me. If anything, my defense was a more mature response to a blanket and unsupported opinion. What I was saying was: I noted a definite difference in those who predominately like the old series, and that the corresponding attitudes from those who are from that era and the rerun era seem to be ok with the portrayal of women...which a LOT of women fans(and don't underestimate the number of them that feel that way) feel is not particularly equitable.
What is probably true...is that the MAJORITY of TOS fans are not chauvinists, though there is a predilection over and above modern trek viewers who do feel that women are treated perfectly well in TOS. I have probably only seen 2-3 cases where those same males on this board also seem to demonstrate particularly disgusting attitudes to women in general.
I also think someone suggested I was trying to pit one series against another again, and that's not the case, I've watched TOS since the 70s, its my second favorite series. I like the show. I accept a lot of the interaction between men and women on the show, rarely did it ruin an episode for me, but also don't think it can be denied that many older male ST fans are more comfortable with the attitudes from that show over the modern trek. I for one am not one of those.
RAMA
3D Master
Rear Admiral
Real nice, except they took only 1700 years, seeing as before some women-hating hate-mongering bastards put their agenda in the new form of Christianity, women were considered the divine, spiritually high, equal to men, and in terms of godliness above men as they created life. And technology has nothing to do with it, as in the old non-technological Pagan religions women were every bit the equal of men, and when it came to the divine and spiritual above them.The whole "Men are evil and have been subjugating women for all those tens of thousands of years, evil, evil men." is more feminist propaganda, and a load a' bull.
And something that could cause the regression to more traditional - men in charge, protects his house and women sensibilites - did indeed happen in the Star Trek future: WWIII, a nuclear holocaust, the aftermath of which had just about every government break down, and the world fall back into barbarism. Notice that this isn't a regression in terms of "women are nothing, property, and all but slaves", but more to the old-style Pagan situation of; women are equal to men, and men are equal to women, but either have their clear cut tasks that the others don't intrude upon.
3D Master said:
The whole "Men are evil and have been subjugating women for all those tens of thousands of years, evil, evil men." is more feminist propaganda, and a load a' bull.
And something that could cause the regression to more traditional - men in charge, protects his house and women sensibilites - did indeed happen in the Star Trek future: WWIII, a nuclear holocaust, the aftermath of which had just about every government break down, and the world fall back into barbarism. Notice that this isn't a regression in terms of "women are nothing, property, and all but slaves", but more to the old-style Pagan situation of; women are equal to men, and men are equal to women, but either have their clear cut tasks that the others don't intrude upon.
Well it possibly wasn't a underground agenda for SOME till 1700 years ago, but in terms of what most cultures did in primitive societies and more advanced ones alike, females tend to be in a secondary role...at least according to men. The point is, as important as they were in child rearing, et all, their role in general still wasn't one where they had a choice to move upward.Idon't think it really means men are evil, I just think it became commonplace to continue old roles of women from primitive societies. While the Koran doesn't state much on women's roles, the culture itself used it to subjugate women. Christian women aren't allowed to be priests to this day. I still hear women in the 21st century who've said to my wife or I how the Bible tells them to be subservient to men, and that's exactly what they do! As far as women being considered divine and equal to men, that wasn't the case for ALL of Christianity, but just certain segments of it.
Tell that to the Nazis. And any other group which encourages a more "traditional" role for women. The Taisho Japanese, for instance.
And you're so sure of yourself, name just one person on this board who dislikes new Trek on the basis of the way women are portrayed in a non-subservient manner. Since, as we all know, it is impossible to dislike the new shows strictly on their own merits, their having won myriad awards and enjoyed by physically superior specimens who employ narcissistic avatars.
^
Actually, I dislike TNG for the way women were portrayed. Why? It was made later in time than TOS and so attitudes should have been different.
But the women (Crusher/Troi) were very...ugh..stereotypic. "Feeling" Troi. "Mother" Crusher.
I specifically remember one scene in "The Host" where they were dressed in 1980s gym togs (pulling me right out of the scene/show) and Beverly was burbling on about her torrid love affair with the trill guy. The whole thing just screamed "stereotyped chick talk."
I didn't feel that way about DS9, which had women who truly were equal, or Voyager, in spite of Janeway being written poorly.
Actually, I dislike TNG for the way women were portrayed. Why? It was made later in time than TOS and so attitudes should have been different.
But the women (Crusher/Troi) were very...ugh..stereotypic. "Feeling" Troi. "Mother" Crusher.
I specifically remember one scene in "The Host" where they were dressed in 1980s gym togs (pulling me right out of the scene/show) and Beverly was burbling on about her torrid love affair with the trill guy. The whole thing just screamed "stereotyped chick talk."
I didn't feel that way about DS9, which had women who truly were equal, or Voyager, in spite of Janeway being written poorly.
3D Master
Rear Admiral
I refer you to Tasha Yar. And you're mixing your episodes. It was the episode "The Price", about the wormhole and Troi's affair with one of the negotiatiors that they were in the gym. I don't think Troi and Crusher ever talked about the Trill guy. Crusher however was getting a manicure with Troi present and talked about Crusher's ghost lover.
Finally, this is the whole "equal is the same" fallacy again. Troi and Crusher were 100% equal to the men, hell they were both full commanders by the end of the show and were regularly in command of the ship when Riker and Picard were off duty/sleeping. They just weren't the same, and men and women just aren't the same.
The question was: do we think the males were chauvinist in the old show??? NO, I don't think so...why? because in the day that was the majority of men as a reflection in the society at the time.....However, would they be considered chauvinist by today's definitions,,,YES! why? because of the type of society we have now.....it's all relative. However, I also agree that you can't change human nature....we need to quit making our men be little sensitive feminine types, unless they "want and choose to be" we need to quit making our little girls "feel" like they need to prove themselves by doing typically "manly" things.....not saying that they can't, or shouldn't...but to force anyone regardless of gender take on a role that is not genuine to them is wrong. I believe a woman can do anything a man could do to an extent....does that make me a chauvinist I hope not....men in general are bigger, have more muscle so are typically stronger physically...then there is always the mental aspect where the level could be more equal. I think women who want to "stay at home and raise children" are just as equal to women who "choose to have careers and not have children" one way is not the best way for all......
Hmmmm! Imagines Mrs. Spock in a red catsuit, hands on hips, throwing back her head and laughing heartily! (Pon farr, baby!)
-- RR
Tasha was quickly "done away with". rather unceremiously, I might add.
and Troi, well, the less said about her "command abilities" the better. IMO, that whole command exam/qualification thing was a running writer's gag.
let's face it, Star Trek has always teetered on the edge of male chauvanism. it's always been an old boys' club. why do you think MOST of TPTB on pretty much all of the series are men? you count the main (not freelance) women writers/producers with two fingers: Dorothy (D.C.) Fontana and Jeri Taylor.
funny, when DS9 was first on, for a wild moment I'd thought that Rene Echeverria was a woman LOL.
Well, maybe a little (I mean, look at my avatar)! Let's just say I appreciate the female form in all its majesty, particularly tall female forms! -- RR
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