There's nothing chauvinistic about saying Uhura or Rand were hot back in the day. They were, and there's nothing wrong with appreciating them. It more about how you go about expressing that opinion. There is a wrong way, of coarse, by getting too graphic. I don't see anybody crossing the line.
Are the majority of male fans of TOS chauvinists?
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Lord Garth
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I think the problem is a little more basic. He sees tendencies less than desirable, has exaggerated them, and then turned a specific group of fans into scapegoats.
It's easier to make sweeping generalizations about people and assume you're right, but pose your position into a question anyway, than to take a long look and think through whether or not it's the case.
That's not right.
In my world, as long as there are women out there who got turned on by Kirk with his shirt off, or drolled over Spock, I have no problem at all admiring any of the women of Trek. That's just my idea of equality.
But as has been stated, TOS is was unfortunately a product of its time. Roddenberry at least made an effort in the first pilot when he cast Majel as the ENT's first officer.
And what about the female lawyer in Kirks court-martial episode (forgot the title, arrrgh!). She came off as a rather competent female.
OTOH, even when I was a kid I felt annoyed by the shortage fo female officers, and especially those damn miniskirts. How awful were those?
But as has been stated, TOS is was unfortunately a product of its time. Roddenberry at least made an effort in the first pilot when he cast Majel as the ENT's first officer.
And what about the female lawyer in Kirks court-martial episode (forgot the title, arrrgh!). She came off as a rather competent female.
OTOH, even when I was a kid I felt annoyed by the shortage fo female officers, and especially those damn miniskirts. How awful were those?
TBonz said:
Plenty of male fans are chauvanist. They go gaga over a pair of bloomers under a dress or a peek of something as if they were 13 and never get laid. I sometimes read the comments and want to barf.Truly. I thought wanting to see someone's underpants was junior high stuff. *shrug*
I don't think most want to see the women as subservient and "lesser" though. Then again, it might be one of those things like racism, where some pay lip service to the Right Sentiments, but feel differently inside.
Honestly, I don't see a male reaction to panties as chauvinism...or a mini-skirt, what have you. Its a fairly normal reaction for most men, from age 15 to age 75. What IS chauvinistic, is ONLY seeing them for that reason...that's their role in the show. Eye candy.
Quite frankly I do see a lot of men who want women to be subservient and it is sad...its not that they want them to be "slaves" but they still want to walk 6 feet in front of them, and talk to them as if barking out commands. I see this a lot in PUBLIC!
RAMA
I feel compelled to point out that TOS was produced in the late 60's when women were more or less portrayed this way in just about every TV show and film. I don't like the way women were portayed either, but it was a sign of the times.
If it makes you feel any better, I am running a TOS-era Star Trek RPG where the captain is a woman and in command of a Connie. And she wears pants, no skirts on this ship
If it makes you feel any better, I am running a TOS-era Star Trek RPG where the captain is a woman and in command of a Connie. And she wears pants, no skirts on this ship
I noticed Ron Moore's (Braga also in his Trek's) attitudes to women seem a little sexist...in DS9 and in BSG. Too often, women are seen as prostitutes, or they need to do sexual favors to get their way, or they are exotic dancers. ON the other hand, instead of making strong women they DO have on the show competent officers, they use the old standby of making them overcompensate.
RAMA
Nomad sterilize, sterlize!
Well I guess the new treks will have to give back and reject their 100s of Emmy award nominations, Peabody, Writer's Guild, Saturns, and Hugos, and we should immediately forget that any of them existed. Obviously the fact that there were 3 shows with varying episodes of quality instead of just one blanket storyline for all, and STNG, DS9 produced superior ratings to TOS means they were no good! I see the light now!
RAMA
Ensign Khan said:
I feel compelled to point out that TOS was produced in the late 60's when women were more or less portrayed this way in just about every TV show and film. I don't like the way women were portayed either, but it was a sign of the times.
If it makes you feel any better, I am running a TOS-era Star Trek RPG where the captain is a woman and in command of a Connie. And she wears pants, no skirts on this ship
I question the 60s attitudes less than the modern attitudes of men who like the 60s show...or like the 60s show exclusively.
Also, he's found a way to make a matter of taste (some people just don't like Modern Trek) into a matter of morality (since most evolved people see the denial of equality on the basis of race or gender as immoral--and here's a totally un-ironic "thank God" for political correctness!). Don't like Modern Trek? It's not because you find the newer shows lacking but because you hate women--or at least, you wish to see them subjugated.
Sorry. Does not compute.
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Lord Garth
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RAMA said:
Ensign Khan said:
I feel compelled to point out that TOS was produced in the late 60's when women were more or less portrayed this way in just about every TV show and film. I don't like the way women were portayed either, but it was a sign of the times.
If it makes you feel any better, I am running a TOS-era Star Trek RPG where the captain is a woman and in command of a Connie. And she wears pants, no skirts on this ship
I question the 60s attitudes less than the modern attitudes of men who like the 60s show...or like the 60s show exclusively.
I'm sorry to disappoint you but I see women as equal to men. I've had several women supervisors or managers, I've never batted an eye, in fact one of them was my friend. IRL, I have a lot more women friends than men. I don't like sports, I don't play video games, I don't like to lust over "hot chicks", that makes it hard to hang around other guys my age.
Should I just dislike everything made prior to 1990-something because they don't conform to 2006/2007 standards? There are other aspects to these programs that make them worth watching and I don't see the point of focusing on one particular aspect of a series to the exclusion of all the others.
I can list off as many newer shows/movies that I like as I can older.
You yourself like TOS... are you sexist? I don't think you realize it but you're making a which hunt.
Every era has atitudes and norms that look "funny" given a few decades. I'm sure that there are things we accept today that will seem silly in fourty years.
Having served in a military for two decades where men and women work together in close quarters under stress, I feel safe in saying that the lack of male/female problems portrayed on "Star Trek" make it a futuristic utopia, rather than a sexist society to be despised.
At no point in the series do I recall an attractive women trying to dodge duty by finding a man willing to favor her, no overt harrasment or false reporting of harrasment, no men totally abusing authority and power to get sexual favors, etc.
Today these things occur, but they aren't the norm or the goal. In TOS, they don't even exist, except when evil mirror personalities or universes are shown.
Personally, I'll take Kirk holding a yeoman in the face of danger in "WNMHGB" than the constant and dreary drumbeat of smug, heavyhanded PC lessons delivered in TNG.
Having served in a military for two decades where men and women work together in close quarters under stress, I feel safe in saying that the lack of male/female problems portrayed on "Star Trek" make it a futuristic utopia, rather than a sexist society to be despised.
At no point in the series do I recall an attractive women trying to dodge duty by finding a man willing to favor her, no overt harrasment or false reporting of harrasment, no men totally abusing authority and power to get sexual favors, etc.
Today these things occur, but they aren't the norm or the goal. In TOS, they don't even exist, except when evil mirror personalities or universes are shown.
Personally, I'll take Kirk holding a yeoman in the face of danger in "WNMHGB" than the constant and dreary drumbeat of smug, heavyhanded PC lessons delivered in TNG.
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Lord Garth
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I did some looking around on you, RAMA, because I actually practice what I preach. It's very common on bulletin boards to not get a complete picture or to misunderstand the context of what someone said.
Back in April, you posted something in the Movie Forum about JJ Abrams:
From there things got worse. Look at the responses:
You tried to explain your situation:
But they weren't buying it:
You were genuinely surprised:
Some people came around and common sense started to show up:
He used the same words I used eariler here: witch hunt.
What's my point? If people there misunderstood the things you said and then twisted it, then isn't it possible that you're misunderstanding the things people said here and are twisting it? It's the same exact thing.
Back in April, you posted something in the Movie Forum about JJ Abrams:
From there things got worse. Look at the responses:
You tried to explain your situation:
But they weren't buying it:
You were genuinely surprised:
Some people came around and common sense started to show up:
He used the same words I used eariler here: witch hunt.
What's my point? If people there misunderstood the things you said and then twisted it, then isn't it possible that you're misunderstanding the things people said here and are twisting it? It's the same exact thing.
The average age of TOS fans is older than the other shows. The older folks are, the less progressive they will tend to be as a group if not as individuals. Therefore, it's not surprising that a larger percentage of TOS fans might be sexist. Nowhere near the majority, though, and I'd be somewhat surprised if the percentage tended to be as high among Trek fans as among the general population for that age group.
Some TOS fans might seem sexist because their favorite Trek is often criticized on those grounds and they rise to its defense with some stridency.
Some TOS fans might seem sexist because their favorite Trek is often criticized on those grounds and they rise to its defense with some stridency.
Neopeius,
Oh, execute your prime function already and sterilize yourself!
Bravo for you that you don't have prejudice toward women in power (just don't pat yourself on the back too hard, pal -- you might hurt yourself).
That doesn't mean there aren't others who are. Another poster mentioned an interesting possibility, that some who like TOS are older, and that it's possible some of them may hold less enlightened opinons.
I disagree with you completely that new Trek is terrible. As Rama pointed out, if it sucked so bad, would it have won all the awards it did? Or would it be so popular?
I remember when TNG was about to come out, nearly 20 years ago. I had a friend who felt that it was sacrilege to have a new show, because the only real ST was TOS. Then, after watching TNG, she changed her mind.
The "TOS is the one true ST" is just so silly. Yes, without TOS, there wouldn't be the other shows. And TOS has a nostalgic place in my heart and mind. But I (and others) feel the new series have carried the torch admirably, if not always successfully.
For the record, I like the first three ST series, but not the last two, although I've enjoyed some eps of VOY and ENT.
Red Ranger
Bachelor Number One, If you were watching Star Track and I started talking about getting a manicure when Dr. Spock was saying somethin', what would you do to me?
Needless to say, euphorik did not win.
But those TOS fans who are critical of TOS (and other Treks) are then pilloried for being negative.
What is this, the Kobayashi Maru?
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