Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Christopher]

It's hard for me to believe that rational people would accept such blatant nonsense (of course Americans are the most stupid in the world). If I told you that you should join my organization and our goal is to kill all the Jews and killing all the Jews would bring world peace. You honestly would think I'm crazy.

You really should read up more on how the Nazis came to power. Remember, they were elected. And a lot of people who were part of the machinery weren't aware of the full extent of what was happening, and a lot of them were uneasy with it but inclined to follow their superiors' orders anyway (also research the Milgrom experiment). I'd particularly recommend Christopher R. Browning's book Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland. Here's an essay I wrote about it in college.

A lot of well-meaning people have been won over by the propaganda of groups like the Nazis and other authoritarian regimes for such reasons.

If I asked you to join the Nazis party, knowing what you know NOW, would you do it.

But that's just the point -- people at the time didn't know what we know now. They were manipulated by lies and propaganda, told what they wanted to hear and guided into compliance. The top people knew what was going on, but they depended on the sheer numbers of rank-and-file soldiers and workers and bureaucrats who were only aware of their own small pieces of the puzzle and blind to the true scope of the atrocities they were participating in.

Spoiler: TWS

It's hard for me to believe a liberal diplomat once considered for the Nobel Prize would start yelling Hail HYDRA.

You're simply echoing the disbelief the characters in the episode expressed that Garrett could be HYDRA. It's like Coulson said -- they convince you by being your friend, by hiding their true nature behind a facade of benevolence. The most potent evils are not obvious cackling psychopaths, because then they'd never get into a position of power. The greatest villains are charismatic and charming and likeable. Hitler and Idi Amin were great fun at parties, to all accounts. People liked them and wanted to follow them. They were good at hiding who they truly were.

Remember, HYDRA was playing a long game. They weren't going around doing evil on a daily basis, because that would've blown their cover. They functioned as sleeper agents, playing the role of good guys for years or decades in order to gain rank and influence so they could subtly maneuver things into position for when they were finally ready to make their move.

Spoiler: TWS

As for SHIELD's methods, I don't think even SHIELD would even consider murdering 20 million people for the simple crime of thinking for themselves

Spoiler: TWS

SHIELD didn't. The HYDRA agents in positions of power within SHIELD did, and lied to the rest about the real purpose of Operation Insight. That's how groups like this get their way -- through lies and deception. What you see is not what you get.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Still...it's possible Ward is trying to infiltrate Hydra...going after the bigger problem.

This.

Whew! That was an intense episode and a great tie-in to TWS. The events on this episode had to have taken place during the takeover and shortly after the destruction of the Triskelion. I was convinced Victoria Hand was the traitor, but somehow I suspected Garrett was dirty. What I didn't see coming was Ward killing Hand. It will be interesting to see what his real motivations are.

 

[bbjeg]

...
If Ward was worth his salt, he would have copied that hard drive and handed it over to Hydra months ago, and then updated Hydra after every mission since then...

I'm sure a log will be written that someone downloaded the files.

 

[Yminale]

You really should read up more on how the Nazis came to power.

Yeah they recruited street thugs, drug addicts, alcoholics and mystics. Not what I call rational people.

Remember, they were elected.

That's actually a myth. Hitler was appointed chancellor in order to form a unity government. The Nazis were not the majority party at the time.

And in it doesn't matter. This is HYDRA. Are you telling me people remember Captain America but forget about HYDRA. If the group had another name, your argument would make sense.

You're simply echoing the disbelief the characters in the episode expressed

I'm echoing the disbelief of a rational person watching the show and TWS...

The greatest villains are charismatic and charming and likeable. Hitler and Idi Amin were great fun at parties, to all accounts.

Knowing what you know NOW would you trust Hitler or Id Amin. Exactly

Remember, HYDRA was playing a long game.

HYDRA played a near perfect game which is another problem. No organization is that good and if they were that good they would have won, regardless of what the heroes did.

Spoiler: TWS

SHIELD didn't. The HYDRA agents in positions of power within SHIELD did, and lied to the rest about the real purpose of Operation Insight. That's how groups like this get their way -- through lies and deception. What you see is not what you get.

The problem is the crews knew exactly what they were doing. That's why it was OK for Captain America to murder them all with his mighty shield.

 

[The Old Mixer]

One detail I noticed is that they pointedly didn't have Ward say "Hail, Hydra", which would have been an obvious moment...indicating that he wasn't already on the inside, and wasn't going to pretend that he was because Garrett would know better.

 

[Yminale]

One detail I noticed is that they pointedly didn't have Ward say "Hail, Hydra", which would have been an obvious moment...indicating that he wasn't already on the inside, and wasn't going to pretend that he was because Garrett would know better.

Spoiler: TWS

Sitwell and Brock Rumlow didn't say "Hail, Hydra" in TWS but I could be wrong

 

[Skywalker]

One detail I noticed is that they pointedly didn't have Ward say "Hail, Hydra", which would have been an obvious moment...indicating that he wasn't already on the inside, and wasn't going to pretend that he was because Garrett would know better.

Spoiler: TWS

Sitwell and Brock Rumlow didn't say "Hail, Hydra" in TWS but I could be wrong

You're not wrong.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I'm not saying that it's a requirement, but that they had an obvious beat to do it and pointedly didn't.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's social programming, changing the language, changes thought. or at least that's what I remember from 1984.

Hail Hydra = Goodbye AND hello AND awesome.

If Hydra was really on the ball, they would remove the words hello and goodbye and awesome from the dictionary and therefore the language...

Spoiler

Although from how TWS was structured, they only people being told overtly about Hydra were those about to be murdered, because Hydra were going to rule as a secret Empire who Joe Sixpack still thought was classic good old fashioned America.

Tonight's episode of AOS didn't exactly resemble that game plan.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

It's social programming, changing the language, changes thought. or at least that's what I remember from 1984.

Hail Hydra = Goodbye AND hello AND awesome.

If Hydra was really on the ball, they would remove the words hello and goodbye and awesome from the dictionary and therefore the language...

Spoiler

Although from how TWS was structured, they only people being told overtly about Hydra were those about to be murdered, because Hydra were going to rule as a secret Empire who Joe Sixpack still thought was classic good old fashioned America.

Tonight's episode of AOS didn't exactly resemble that game plan.

Spoiler

It didn't, but that's because Hydra's plan was about to blow up in their face when Fury was on the verge of discovering it all.
That's why he tried to stop the launch of the carriers and Hydra accelerated it after assassinating him.
When Captain America also discovered their plan, they abandoned all pretenses. That's what we saw in this episode. Mostly the fall out from TWS.

Since they couldn't keep the secret anymore, they tried force with getting the helicarriers up in the air and targeting every potential resistance leader in one swoop. Cut of ALL the heads of Hydra's enemy at once so to speak.

 

[Reverend]

I'm not saying that it's a requirement, but that they had an obvious beat to do it and pointedly didn't.

Sometimes, not doing the obvious thing is a better choice. Like say *not* making Hand a Hydra agent.

I think there's almost no chance that Ward isn't Hydra. The only way the infiltration idea would work is if it was Hand's idea and their deaths were somehow staged. Even then, there's the problem of how to dispose of the not-dead bodies without raising suspicion. I don't think she or Ward (assuming he's not evil) would sacrifice three high level agents at a time when they need all the people they can get.

No, Ward specifically asked to go along. It was his idea and from that foreshadowing look from Coulson, you can tell the director intended for the audience to feel that something was off.

Honestly, this is the best thing to do with Ward. It makes sense now why they made him so bland if the intent all along was to flip him to the other side. Now we get a recurring villain that we actually know to some degree and isn't just some mindless pawn.

As for that thing from TWS that wasn't spoiled...

Spoiler: TWS + post credits scene

As Baron Von Glowey Eyesocket said, the files that Cap dumped on the net weren't *everything*, just what Fury had access to at the time. Indeed we saw in the film that some things had been sealed so even he couldn't get in. I suspect the files on Skye and the "Guest" are either buried very deep or not on the system at all. I'm sure there's plenty of ultra top secret

Oh and speaking of things that weren't spoiled; remember that the Bus crew don't know Fury is still alive.

Actually, when you think about it, there isn't much that this episode spoiled that you couldn't have gotten one way or another from the movie's trailers.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The movie could have ended with the Winter soldier killing Captain America.

Steve died in the comics and Bucky took over for YEARS.

A "version" of that was more than possible, and is still possible for those that haven't seen the movie.

 

[Vendikarr]

How's this for a theory?

Spoiler: regarding TWS

During the fight in the hallway, Ward was captured. Someone used one of those holo-masks like Black Widow did in TWS. When it was time for Hand to leave with her prisoner, another Hydra agent took Ward's place, maybe Trippet(?), to free his partner, and point suspicion on to Ward should it go wrong. And maybe to infiltrate Coulson's team. Farfetched I know, but it could work. I would rather Ward be the baddie though, I never really liked the character.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Sometimes, not doing the obvious thing is a better choice. Like say *not* making Hand a Hydra agent.

Or not making Ward one.

I think that Ward is on his own side now, whatever his motivation.

The killing of the fake Clairvoyant could be because he was Hydra all along, or it could be because he's now willing to do extreme things to protect Skye, which is what he claims.

A week ago, a lot of folks around here were still all on about how the berserker staff must still be having an effect on him...maybe it is.

I also remember somebody floating the idea out there that Skye's ability is making people want to protect her. Maybe Ward is under the influence, hence his extreme actions both when he killed the fake Clairvoyant and now.

Actually, when you think about it, there isn't much that this episode spoiled that you couldn't have gotten one way or another from the movie's trailers.

I saw nothing in the trailers about Hydra or about Sitwell's true nature...both genuine surprises for me in the movie theater.

 

[Luminus]

Now for the interesting question... When was Brett Dalton told that he was playing both sides?

http://marvel.com/news/tv/2014/4/8/...nt_wards_new_role_in_marvels_agents_of_shield

 

[Guy Gardener]

He wasn't protecting Sky because he knew that that wasn't the Clairvoyant.

3 possibilities come to mind.

1. Ward was ordered to kill Suder a week before he entered that room.

2. Ward wanted to trick Skye into thinking that he really cared for her so that she would "go out for a drink" sometime, by playing into her unsubstantiated fears.

3. Skye's fear of this fake clairvoyant was real, so murdering him, which he was not strictly ordered to do so, but was within his mission parameters, did put her mind at ease, and he did save her from the unfounded and misplaced terror she was feeling... So, he was saving her, after a fashion.

 

[bbjeg]

How's this for a theory?

Spoiler: regarding TWS

During the fight in the hallway, Ward was captured. Someone used one of those holo-masks like Black Widow did in TWS. When it was time for Hand to leave with her prisoner, another Hydra agent took Ward's place, maybe Trippet(?), to free his partner, and point suspicion on to Ward should it go wrong. And maybe to infiltrate Coulson's team. Farfetched I know, but it could work. I would rather Ward be the baddie though, I never really liked the character.

Spoiler: regarding your theory.

I thought that too before this episode but we see Triplett yell at Garrett as they carry him off and Ward is there too. If Ward is someone else, it's not Triplett.

Spoiler: released photos.

It looks like Triplett is joining the cast.

 

[dansigal]

He wasn't protecting Sky because he knew that that wasn't the Clairvoyant.

To be fair, we don't know that for sure yet. I don't believe it's the case, but it's still a possibility at least that he still believed that guy was the Clairvoyant at that time.

 

[Eduardo]

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdDOhL-rC7s[/yt]

'Agents of SHIELD' postmortem: Jeff Bell and Jeph Loeb
http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/09/agents-of-shield-postmortem-ward/

 

[Christopher]

You really should read up more on how the Nazis came to power.

Yeah they recruited street thugs, drug addicts, alcoholics and mystics. Not what I call rational people.

You're talking about the party members. I'm talking about the millions of ordinary German citizens who did the everyday grunt work without which the Nazis couldn't have done anything. As I said, you need to read up -- to learn more about the subject, not just restate what you already believe. There is always more to learn.

And in it doesn't matter. This is HYDRA. Are you telling me people remember Captain America but forget about HYDRA. If the group had another name, your argument would make sense.

There are plenty of neo-Nazis out there, and plenty of people who think the Confederacy wasn't so bad. There are always people who are willing to be convinced that such groups weren't as bad as history portrayed them, or that the old guard was flawed and corrupt and the new version is better.

You seem to be assuming that it's impossible for any malicious group to win large numbers of followers. I only wish that were true, because history would be a lot less bloody if it were. But such groups are very good at gaining large numbers of followers, whether by appealing to people's baser instincts, exploiting their inclination to obey authority, or simply lying to them.

HYDRA played a near perfect game which is another problem. No organization is that good and if they were that good they would have won, regardless of what the heroes did.

In the words of Jean-Luc Picard, "It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose."

And really, this is the way it almost always works in fiction. The bad guys are supposed to be nearly unbeatable, to come within a hair's breadth of total victory. That way, it's more impressive when the heroes triumph against overwhelming odds.

Spoiler: TWS

The problem is the crews knew exactly what they were doing.

Spoiler: TWS

Yes, of course they did! The film made it quite clear that the HYDRA agents in charge of Operation Insight chose to man the Helicarriers entirely with their own people. No, not everyone in SHIELD as a whole was part of HYDRA, but everyone selected as crew aboard those carriers was, because the entire project was a HYDRA plot.

Anyway, change of subject: I find myself wishing that either CA:TWS had come out a couple of months earlier or AoS had premiered a couple of months later. This twist basically constitutes the "midpoint reversal" in the traditional 3-act structure, the moment where everything you thought you knew about the story and its goals is turned on its head and the characters face their greatest setback. So it would've worked better structurally if it had come at, well, the midpoint, halfway through the season instead of nearly 3/4 into it.