8X04 "Listen" Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!

[Saul]

I'm wondering if they end up doing a Birth of the Doctor episode with Clara as his Mother.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did, honestly. We know from the Doctor Who movies (1996) the Doctor is half human on his MOTHER's side. I jest I jest.

Yeah, we jest now until it actually happens. If she was his mother it might be also why he became an orphan. If he actually was an orphan. Who knows, maybe Danny is a Timelord and doesn't know it. Maybe this is why Orson is the first "human" time traveler. Runs in the family.

 

[Cyke101]

Lastly, I'm really impressed with how the show is handling what appears to be PTSD in a rather mature way. It's serious and nothing to joke at (as Clara found out the hard way), but also that even if she didn't know, both Clara and Danny understand that they're both humans and thus make mistakes. Not every depiction of military-related PTSD needs to show a character waking up from a sweaty nightmare or crouching in sadness in the shower; this episode was rather poignant in showing that even every day tasks that we take for granted -- like flirting -- can be a struggle.

I find it kind of annoying, they've already established that Danny is haunted by his experiences at war but Clara continues to make irreverent comments about killing and all that which set him off. Maybe that's the point, there is a remarkable number of examples where the word killing is used casually that we wouldn't think about and to someone with PTSD that can be an unwelcome reminder. But their relationship seriously needs to develop into something other than Clara making some off-hand reference to killing and Danny getting all moody.

I'm hopeful that Clara will stop using that language so casually and be more conscious about how she triggers his trauma after that episode -- after all, the first introduction we have of Clara in this episode was about her dwelling on all the times she messed up regretfully during their date. Of course, if next week she does it again, then you're right, it renders all those nice moments pretty moot and turns their relationship really basic.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

This episode owes a lot to Terrance Dicks-the Whole "Cruel, Cowardly, Kind" thing (also mentioned in Day of The Doctor), and the Doctor's 'saddest day' which is presumabely also the day he met K'anpo, the hermit from the Pertwee era mentioned in The Time Monster and seen in Planet Of The Spiders. (Dicks script edited that era).


As for the Doctor insulting his companions, people seem to forget it's not only the original,current and sixth Doctors. The Fourth Doctor was quite hard on Harry and even Sarah to an extent in his early stories, Three was quite hard on Jo at first since she wasn't as smart as Liz (not to mention his frequent arguments with UNIT), the Fifth Doctor had many arguments with Tegan and Adric, the Seventh was very harsh to Ace at times (Although mostly for her own good) and the new series started with the Ninth who often was very critical with Rose, Mickey and her family (not to mention ditching Adam).
Tenth and Eleventh were more kind and more popular than the other examples so I think people might be forgetting the Doctor is not always a nice guy.

 

[Pingfah]

I thought it was crap, just a few cheap scares and a boring smartarse causality plot. Yawn.

 

[Doctorwhovian]

BTW here's the relevant dialogue from Time Monster:

DOCTOR: Any luck?

JO: Funnily enough, they didn’t include Atlantean chains in my escapology course. No, it’s no good. Doctor, what are we going to do?

DOCTOR: Well, we’ll just have to play it by ear, won’t we.

JO: What happens if the Master wins?

DOCTOR: Well, the whole of creation is very delicately balanced in cosmic terms, Jo. If the Master opens the floodgates of Kronos’ power, all order and all structure will be swept away, and nothing will be left but chaos.

JO: Makes it seem so pointless really, doesn’t it.

DOCTOR: I felt like that once when I was young. It was the blackest day of my life.

JO: Why?

DOCTOR: Ah, well, that’s another story. I’ll tell you about it one day. The point is, that day was not only my blackest, it was also my best.

JO: Well, what do you mean?

DOCTOR: Well, when I was a little boy, we used to live in a house that was perched halfway up the top of a mountain. And behind our house, there sat under a tree an old man, a hermit, a monk. He’d lived under this tree for half his lifetime, so they said, and he’d learned the secret of life. So, when my black day came, I went and asked him to help me.

JO: And he told you the secret? Well, what was it?

DOCTOR: Well, I’m coming to that, Jo, in my own time. Ah, I’ll never forget what it was like up there. All bleak and cold, it was. A few bare rocks with some weeds sprouting from them and some pathetic little patches of sludgy snow. It was just grey. Grey, grey, grey. Well, the tree the old man sat under, that was ancient and twisted and the old man himself was, he was as brittle and as dry as a leaf in the autumn.

JO: But what did he say?

DOCTOR: Nothing, not a word. He just sat there, silently, expressionless, and he listened whilst I poured out my troubles to him. I was too unhappy even for tears, I remember. And when I’d finished, he lifted a skeletal hand and he pointed. Do you know what he pointed at?

JO: No.

DOCTOR: A flower. One of those little weeds. Just like a daisy, it was. Well, I looked at it for a moment and suddenly I saw it through his eyes. It was simply glowing with life, like a perfectly cut jewel. And the colours? Well, the colours were deeper and richer than you could possibly imagine. Yes, that was the daisiest daisy I’d ever seen.

JO: And that was the secret of life? A daisy? Honestly, Doctor.

DOCTOR: Yes, I laughed too when I first heard it. So, later, I got up and I ran down that mountain and I found that the rocks weren’t grey at all, but they were red, brown and purple and gold. And those pathetic little patches of sludgy snow, they were shining white. Shining white in the sunlight. You still frightened, Jo?

JO: No, not as much as I was.

DOCTOR: That’s good. I’m sorry I brought you to Atlantis.

JO: I’m not.

DOCTOR: Thank you.

 

[Saul]

Thanks for that. So what was his blackest day?

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

BTW here's the relevant dialogue from Time Monster:

See, thats why I like The Time Monster - which I don't think is bad, just rushed, ideas-wise. This scene, and Delgado's performance elevate that story more than it otherwise would've. Love this tidbit about the Doctor!

 

[davejames]

So yeah, Clara's fingerprints are on a lot of things regarding the Doctor Who Canon.

So Moffat wants to give us a companion who's much more active and important to the story, and who does more than simply look pretty, ask inane questions, and get captured by the bad guys every week. Not really seeing how that is a bad thing.

Just because previous writers never had the creativity or imagination (or frankly even interest) to do more with the companions, doesn't mean that it's somehow wrong to do so now.

And since all of these major events still revolve around the Doctor in one way or another, I don't see how his importance is diminished at all either. It's still him making the ultimate decisions in the end.

 

[Skellington]

I've become convinced that the Trenzalore grave site encountered by The Doctor + The Great Intelligence was somehow staged by a future Doctor (and River Song and the TARDIS itself) for the 11th to find and believe he dies there, when he actually doesn't. So those events still take place, but it was not what everyone there thought it was. Much like how the 11th staged his death in Utah. You can't beat the Doctor because future Doctor is always 100 steps ahead of you.

A hoax is always a possibility, and the time-scar being a fake would solve one or two continuity issues. Works for me.

Moffat has said that Trenalore could still be the place where the future Doctor dies.

That's also a possibility, given that he's now basically a Trenzalorean. But then it seems that the Great Intelligence either didn't bother with post-Eleven Doctors or just didn't get the chance.

 

[Cyke101]

So yeah, Clara's fingerprints are on a lot of things regarding the Doctor Who Canon.

So Moffat wants to give us a companion who's much more active and important to the story, and who does more than simply look pretty, ask inane questions, and get captured by the bad guys every week. Not really seeing how that is a bad thing.

Just because previous writers never had the creativity or imagination (or frankly even interest) to do more with the companions, doesn't mean that it's somehow wrong to do so now.

There's one thing that I really appreciate in this episode regarding Clara: her professional background is actually key to the episode in such an integral, built-in way. She treats both young Rupert and Kid Hartnell the way that a concerned teacher should, and in effect really does help shape their future. But really, not a lot of other companions get to bring their expertise to the forefront like that often; and when they do, it's typically a one-shot deal, like a power they just conveniently possessed for that situation. Here, we see the long-term effects of Clara's skills; that Twelve and Orson are parallel figures that show the impact of a good teacher was a brilliant way to illustrate that.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

So Moffat wants to give us a companion who's much more active and important to the story, and who does more than simply look pretty, ask inane questions, and get captured by the bad guys every week. Not really seeing how that is a bad thing.

Just because previous writers never had the creativity or imagination (or frankly even interest) to do more with the companions, doesn't mean that it's somehow wrong to do so now.

It's not bad, bad. It's just annoying. Show runners, actors who play the Doctor and actors who play the companions are all temporary. When the respective actors and show runners leave the franchise, their contributions are sparsely referenced by new show runners as they move the franchise forward.

What Moffat is doing/has done seems like an attempt to put his stamp on all the seasons and all the Doctors that have come before. Putting such an emphasis on Clara's role on the Doctor's entire life, is IMO overindulgent. I don't dislike Clara, but she seems more like a cipher than a character at times. She starts out as a nanny who doesn't understand computers, then the Impossible Girl mystery is slapped on her and resolved in TNOTD, later in TDOTD she is a school teacher somehow and now we have present Clara who gives reassuring words of comfort to a crying Doctor in his boyhood youth. It's like her character is defined and redefined to fit whatever role the script says she needs to fill.

It's not like past companions are innocent of an over-emphasis of importance. Rose Tyler for example was given way too much emphasis in the first two season and was being constantly referenced in season 3 after she left the show. By season 4 Rose was a badass warrior, with her mum, dad from a parallel universe; where they lived in a mansion were rich and she had a copy of the man of her dreams to spend her life with. You can call Rose and Clara wish fufillment characters, but the difference between them is RTD's doting on Rose fits in more of a niche and doesn't have larger implications to the franchise before and after it. Moffat basically reset the franchise with his first series, with the cracks in the universe plot.

There's one thing that I really appreciate in this episode regarding Clara: her professional background is actually key to the episode in such an integral, built-in way. She treats both young Rupert and Kid Hartnell the way that a concerned teacher should, and in effect really does help shape their future. But really, not a lot of other companions get to bring their expertise to the forefront like that often; and when they do, it's typically a one-shot deal, like a power they just conveniently possessed for that situation. Here, we see the long-term effects of Clara's skills; that Twelve and Orson are parallel figures that show the impact of a good teacher was a brilliant way to illustrate that.

That part I did enjoy as well. Clara using her experience as a nanny and teacher to comfort two scared children, Rupert and a young Doctor. I rewatched the episode on Direct TV a few hours ago and it does seem like things are a bit all over the place, but those slow moments with Clara just being a human being and not getting caught up in her personal drama with Danny and the Doctor are far more endearing to her character.

 

[inflatabledalek]

Liked the Blair Witch style "Was there really a monster at all?" vibe, everything that happened in the episode had a potential rational mundane explanation (or at least as rational as "My friend from the future came back in time and grabbed me by the leg from under the bed" ever gets) and could the Doctor could just haver been straight up long.

Yes, the Moff is being very Terry Nation in shoving all his standards into the episode, but it still flowed well, the dating stuff was fun and the Young Doctor bit was surprisingly well done.

I'm baffled by how many people think the barn was on Gallifrey though, it clearly wasn't in Day of the Doctor (no billion billion Daleks in the sky and it would have been really stupid with all of time and space to go run off to and use the weapon in that the Doctor would basically go to the cosmic doorstep of the folks he's running from), and the Doctor being in a boys home of some sort of an alien planet adds to the mystery of his past rather than subtracting from it.

 

[davejames]

You can call Rose and Clara wish fufillment characters, but the difference between them is RTD's doting on Rose fits in more of a niche and doesn't have larger implications to the franchise before and after it. Moffat basically reset the franchise with his first series, with the cracks in the universe plot.

Well I suppose for those keeping detailed records, that might be an issue. But for the vast majority of viewers, there's nothing Moffat has done that has radically changed the basic nature of the show in any real way. Or anything that is going to prevent a future showrunner from telling the same old kinds of DW stories as before.

I mean sure, Moffat had the Doctor completely reset the entire universe at the end of Season 5, but has that really had any kind of effect on the DW universe as we know it? You could safely ignore that it ever happened, and it wouldn't make any real difference to the show (and I'd be willing to bet most viewers already have forgotten that it happened).

And the same goes for whatever influence Clara had on events in the Doctor's past. Moffat might have given us a few new insights into that past, but it's nothing that fundamentally changes the character as a whole. At least that I can see.

 

[Saul]

Moffat has said that Trenalore could still be the place where the future Doctor dies.

That's also a possibility, given that he's now basically a Trenzalorean. But then it seems that the Great Intelligence either didn't bother with post-Eleven Doctors or just didn't get the chance.

They might have encountered them before they encountered 11. They did mention the Valeyard which implies that there was still a bit of a future left for the Doctor beyond 11.

 

[Mr Light]

<<I'm baffled by how many people think the barn was on Gallifrey though, it clearly wasn't in Day of the Doctor (no billion billion Daleks in the sky and it would have been really stupid with all of time and space to go run off to and use the weapon in that the Doctor would basically go to the cosmic doorstep of the folks he's running from), and the Doctor being in a boys home of some sort of an alien planet adds to the mystery of his past rather than subtracting from it. >>

For me the issue wasn't was the barn on Gallifrey or one of the colonies, but the fact that she was able to time-travel to the past of the Time Lords, which just opens a HUGE can of worms for the Time War.

The Doctor's relative timeline has always shown to match the relative timeline of Gallifrey. And by "Gallifrey" I mean anything to do with the Time Lords.

If the Doctor can go back along his own timeline, why doesn't he just go back in time and warn himself about every thing ever? Why didn't he prevent the Time War?

The only example I can think of of a Time Lord going backwards is Rassilon implanting the drums into the Master as a child, but that was a signal broadcasting backwards and not a person.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

The way I see "time-locked" in the nu-Who context, is that it means that stuff that happened before or after a locked event can in fact be altered, however time would still conspire such that the locked event would still happen (NB "Waters of Mars", where Adelaide's death was averted by the Doctor, and yet it still happened anyway). In other words, you can rewrite history all you want, but stuff that's is a fixed point in time (or made to be so) will always find a way to happen no matter what you did.

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Fixed_point_in_time

Well, unless you've got a minimum of three Doctors, apparently.

Mark

 

[Mr Light]

If a society of billions of time travelers are able to travel backwards to affect their own pasts... that whole house of cards is going to fall apart immediately.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

And how the hell did Clara manage to travel back in time to Past Gallifrey? If Time Lords can travel back in time to Gallifrey (which has NEVER been shown as far as I know)***, why didn't a Time War Era Time Lord go back in time before the war started and try to warn them or get weapons or something? It just opens a HUGE can of worms, but as always, Moffat isn't concerned with logic or rules or reason...

As I argued above, I don't think Time Lords can travel back in time to Gallifrey. But that doesn't mean the TARDIS can't.

 

[Velocity]

when Clara had her hands in the Tardis goo the first time she thought of Danny Pink and went back in time to his childhood. The second time she had her hands in the goo, she thought about the Doctor and went back in time to his childhood. It indicates that the Doctor has been afraid of being alone since he was a child, which explains why he likes to have companions along on his travels. (it reminded me of kids away from home at camp--either feeling alone because of being different or actually being physically alone) I think there really IS a species that is very good at hiding and was under the blanket. It will probably turn up again later in the series. I wonder if Clara has a special connection to the Tardis now. Maybe that is how she was able to fit into the past adventures. It might be the Tardis's way of saving the Doctor from danger and from himself sometimes. There is a sentience about the Tardis.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

So Moffat wants to give us a companion who's much more active and important to the story, and who does more than simply look pretty, ask inane questions, and get captured by the bad guys every week. Not really seeing how that is a bad thing.

Just because previous writers never had the creativity or imagination (or frankly even interest) to do more with the companions, doesn't mean that it's somehow wrong to do so now.

It's not bad, bad. It's just annoying. Show runners, actors who play the Doctor and actors who play the companions are all temporary. When the respective actors and show runners leave the franchise, their contributions are sparsely referenced by new show runners as they move the franchise forward.

What Moffat is doing/has done seems like an attempt to put his stamp on all the seasons and all the Doctors that have come before.

He's also erased many of the previous adventures from history. Tried to redesign the Daleks. Had a companion create the universe. Created a Mary Sue gunslinging woman who could fly the TARDIS better that the Doctor is infatuated into marrying. Took the 13th incarnation and the reset to boot. Oh and wasn't Season Five going to be Season One at some point?